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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

Oftel rules that 28.8 k is the bare minimum



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 23rd 03, 04:49 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Peter Morgan - 0870 432 9631
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 294
Default Oftel rules that 28.8 k is the bare minimum

On 23 Jul 2003 16:28 "Clueless" wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3089319.stm

So BT get away with using Dax services, shouldnt we lobby Oftel to include
greater than 33.6 as the minimum net access ?


If you believe you "must" have faster, then there are two ways to achieve
it - (a) move so you can get a faster connection, or (b) pay for leased
line. I routinely substitute "need" by "want" when I read posts if a
user is not getting a "high" speed. I remember 1200/75 and 300/300 and
design web sites suitable for 28.8k, so even though having 500/1000/2000
is "nice" it is rarely "essential", and similarly speeds above 28.8k. If
you feel your "need" is commercial, then you (and you alone) might need to
dig deep for that line / to move premises to somewhere more suitable, IMO.
  #2  
Old July 23rd 03, 05:31 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Hiram Hackenbacker
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 118
Default Oftel rules that 28.8 k is the bare minimum

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:53:02 +0100, CB wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3089319.stm

So BT get away with using Dax services, shouldnt we lobby Oftel to include
greater than 33.6 as the minimum net access ?


If you believe you "must" have faster, then there are two ways to achieve
it - (a) move so you can get a faster connection, or (b) pay for leased
line. I routinely substitute "need" by "want" when I read posts if a
user is not getting a "high" speed. I remember 1200/75 and 300/300 and
design web sites suitable for 28.8k, so even though having 500/1000/2000
is "nice" it is rarely "essential", and similarly speeds above 28.8k. If
you feel your "need" is commercial, then you (and you alone) might need to
dig deep for that line / to move premises to somewhere more suitable, IMO.


So you're saying that someone who wants more than a 28.8k connection
should have to 'pay more' and should think about getting a leased line?


Peter's views (shared by me) are not unreasonable. If faster access
is important be prepared to move or pay.

Come on Peter, you know your stuff for definite, but don't you think
this is a little unreasonable? The houses at the other end of town to
me _all_ are DACS'ed! They have a right TO ADSL, just as I and others do
in our newly enabled DSL exchange, without resorting to moving house or
getting in a leased line.


The Oftel document (he-
http://www.oftel.gov.uk/publications...03/uso0703.pdf)
has some important points to make about DACS. It includes this
comment:-

"If the line is intended to be used for Internet access, the provider
should take all reasonable steps to avoid fitting, or using existing
pair-gain systems".

Reading between the lines this spells the end for DACS in my opinion.
See section 11 and 12 - this clearly provides all existing DACS users
with a possible path to get it removed.

--
Hiram Hackenbacker
  #3  
Old July 23rd 03, 05:43 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
HamMan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default Oftel rules that 28.8 k is the bare minimum


"Hiram Hackenbacker" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:53:02 +0100, CB wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3089319.stm

So BT get away with using Dax services, shouldnt we lobby Oftel to

include
greater than 33.6 as the minimum net access ?

If you believe you "must" have faster, then there are two ways to

achieve
it - (a) move so you can get a faster connection, or (b) pay for leased
line. I routinely substitute "need" by "want" when I read posts if a
user is not getting a "high" speed. I remember 1200/75 and 300/300 and
design web sites suitable for 28.8k, so even though having

500/1000/2000
is "nice" it is rarely "essential", and similarly speeds above 28.8k.

If
you feel your "need" is commercial, then you (and you alone) might need

to
dig deep for that line / to move premises to somewhere more suitable,

IMO.

So you're saying that someone who wants more than a 28.8k connection
should have to 'pay more' and should think about getting a leased line?


Peter's views (shared by me) are not unreasonable. If faster access
is important be prepared to move or pay.

Come on Peter, you know your stuff for definite, but don't you think
this is a little unreasonable? The houses at the other end of town to
me _all_ are DACS'ed! They have a right TO ADSL, just as I and others do
in our newly enabled DSL exchange, without resorting to moving house or
getting in a leased line.


The Oftel document (he-
http://www.oftel.gov.uk/publications...03/uso0703.pdf)
has some important points to make about DACS. It includes this
comment:-

"If the line is intended to be used for Internet access, the provider
should take all reasonable steps to avoid fitting, or using existing
pair-gain systems".

Reading between the lines this spells the end for DACS in my opinion.
See section 11 and 12 - this clearly provides all existing DACS users
with a possible path to get it removed.

--
Hiram Hackenbacker


Ever heard a BT enginner say that a phone line is for internet? Thats how
they excape that little loophole


  #4  
Old July 23rd 03, 05:48 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham in Melton
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Posts: 167
Default Oftel rules that 28.8 k is the bare minimum

Re-arrange this well know expression ... "ollbokcs"

There is no "need" for DSL nor a "right" to it.

He's not negative, you're just another hopeless optimist with little grip on
the economic reality of the world.

Its not at all personal, but you need to get a grip on your priorities -
water, light, clean air, safety and food should all be "rights" .

Those who haven't got them donıt see broadband internet access as much of an
issue - only those who donıt realise how lucky they are to be so safe and
privileged, complain about things that don't matter.

Not sure what efficiency has to do with it but I don't actually see why I
should subsidise the cost of communications your "inefficient" location




SNIP ""

They have a right TO ADSL, just as I and others do
in our newly enabled DSL exchange, without resorting to moving house or
getting in a leased line.

I am of the firm believe that it is opinions such as yours with negates
efficiency and breeds negative results. ""





  #5  
Old July 23rd 03, 05:49 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Hiram Hackenbacker
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 118
Default Oftel rules that 28.8 k is the bare minimum

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:43:48 +0100, "HamMan"
wrote:

Ever heard a BT enginner say that a phone line is for internet? Thats how
they excape that little loophole


If you mean when an engineer turns up to install a new line - yes. I
know a number of BT engineers. Most work from their job sheet, read
details of the installation (notes) and keep the customer updated.
Some have also asked me if it is a fax/modem line.

--
Hiram Hackenbacker
  #6  
Old July 23rd 03, 06:32 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham in Melton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 167
Default Oftel rules that 28.8 k is the bare minimum

I know a brain surgeon, fancy a trip to the op theatre for corrective
surgery. Knowing someone means nothing .....

My point (not well made) is that more often than not, those who go on about
rights, are usually those who actually have least to complain about. Those
who need them have higher priorities. like staying alive.

And those that can't get ADSL, are rarely prepared personally to pay the
cost of its provision to uneconomic locations, and expect the rest of us to
subsidise them.

Thatıs all ...

On 23/7/03 6:11 pm, in article ,
"CB" wrote:

He's not negative, you're just another hopeless optimist with little grip on
the economic reality of the world.


Well, I know an economist very very well, so i doubt I have 'little
grip'.


  #7  
Old July 23rd 03, 06:49 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Oftel rules that 28.8 k is the bare minimum

In article , Graham in Melton
writes
I know a brain surgeon, fancy a trip to the op theatre for corrective
surgery. Knowing someone means nothing .....

My point (not well made) is that more often than not, those who go on about
rights, are usually those who actually have least to complain about. Those
who need them have higher priorities. like staying alive.

And those that can't get ADSL, are rarely prepared personally to pay the
cost of its provision to uneconomic locations, and expect the rest of us to
subsidise them.

Thatıs all ...

Those who live in rural areas are rarely prepared personally to pay the
real cost of public transport to their areas and expect the rest of us
to subsidise them.

Those who use airports and aircraft are rarely prepared personally to
pay the real environmental costs of building and maintaining them and
expect the rest of us to subsidise them.

Those who deliberately use tobacco or alcohol are rarely prepared
personally to pay the real cost of their hospitalisation if it becomes
necessary and expect the rest of us to subsidise them.

There is no *right* to have ADSL-enabled at every exchange, nevertheless
it's a service which is becoming essential if rural areas are to retain
their small/medium businesses which employ many people living in those
areas, and as such is deserving of public subsidy in the same way that
other services are subsidised.
--
Paul B The irony of the Information Age is that it has given new
respectability to uninformed opinion. - John Lawton
  #8  
Old July 23rd 03, 07:07 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Hiram Hackenbacker
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 118
Default Oftel rules that 28.8 k is the bare minimum

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:49:05 +0100, Paul wrote:

There is no *right* to have ADSL-enabled at every exchange, nevertheless
it's a service which is becoming essential if rural areas are to retain
their small/medium businesses which employ many people living in those
areas, and as such is deserving of public subsidy in the same way that
other services are subsidised.


Well put - which suggests to me that Council's would do well to stop
subsidising rural bus services and spend the thousands of pounds saved
on ADSL provision to their communities.

--
Hiram Hackenbacker
  #9  
Old July 23rd 03, 10:21 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Andy Furniss
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 56
Default Oftel rules that 28.8 k is the bare minimum


"Graham in Melton" wrote in message
...
I know a brain surgeon, fancy a trip to the op theatre for corrective
surgery. Knowing someone means nothing .....

My point (not well made) is that more often than not, those who go on

about
rights, are usually those who actually have least to complain about.

Those
who need them have higher priorities. like staying alive.


Doesn't mean people don't have rights against being exploited by
monopolies/cartels.

Wouldn't you talk about rights if the oil companies formed a cartel and put
50p on a litre to increase their profits.


And those that can't get ADSL, are rarely prepared personally to pay the
cost of its provision to uneconomic locations, and expect the rest of us

to
subsidise them.


I think you'll find that those with dsl are being subsidised by those who
have to pay the same for a few hours per day at 64k.

When BT first announced pricing for dsl the other companies were up for
installing equipment in exchanges - the price conviniently fell enough to
make it unprofitable for them.

Andy.



  #10  
Old July 23rd 03, 10:58 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham in Melton
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Posts: 167
Default Oftel rules that 28.8 k is the bare minimum

Cartels and monopolies usually work where the price charged exceeds a
reasonable level of profit to distort a market and where the 'fair price'
would be lower.

I doubt any of us are paying the true short term costs and as to your
suggestion that DSL users are subsidised by dial up users ....sorry but
that's just rubbish.

People do have rights, you are correct but having rights doesnıt extend to
making someone else pay the cost of your life choice. You chose to live
there and BT do not have to follow you around providing services at a loss.

Thatıs called nationalisation, and thatıs why it used to take months just to
get a phone before they were privatised.

Better 80% get a service now rather than bankrupt the economy.

Where do you suggest BT get the money to pay for the service you're
suggesting ?

On 23/7/03 10:21 pm, in article ,
"Andy Furniss" wrote:

Doesn't mean people don't have rights against being exploited by
monopolies/cartels.


 




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