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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

Virgin.Net Broadband?!? Heavy Downloaders should think twice ....



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 15th 03, 03:27 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband,alt.uk.virgin-net.oldbies,alt.internet.providers.uk.aaisp,uk.media.broadband
Micael Doyle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Virgin.Net Broadband?!? Heavy Downloaders should think twice ....

Almost forced to leave Virgin.Net.
Please read below and let me know your opinions:

Below I report a copy of an email I received 2 weeks ago from
Virgin.Net.
Yesterday I received the same threat on a paper copy. The letter
actually was a bit more lengthy and explicitily threatening about the
ridiculous 5GB/Week up/download limit:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Important Announcement regarding your Virgin.net Broadband account -
Please Read

Dear customer,

You may be aware that some Virgin.net Broadband customers are
currently experiencing a deterioration in service performance.

The most significant reason for this is excessive bandwidth usage,
where a minority of customers are constantly uploading and / or
downloading really large files and thus clogging up the network.

So if you are a heavy user of Virgin.net Broadband, it would really
help if you could take it a bit easy. We are requesting that everyone
reduces their levels of uploading / or downloading activity to 1
gigabyte a day up to a maximum of 5 gigabytes per week. This will
enable us to get the system back up to speed and allow everyone to
enjoy the service in full.

Otherwise, we may have to take drastic action and restrict usage. We
would encourage you to visit the Virgin.net website for our Terms and
Conditions regarding broadband usage with particular reference to
Clauses F.16 and P.2 whereby Virgin.net reserves the right to
temporarily suspend or to terminate accounts. This would obviously be
a last resort for us and we hope that we do not have to take such
action.

If you have any questions on your broadband usage please see our FAQs
or feel free to email us at

Thank you,

Virgin.net"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

My account is a standard 512Kb Download account. THIS MEANS THAT I
BOUGHT A 512Kb Download account for a 24/7 service. THIS IS WHAT I
BOUGHT! DIDN'T I?

Let's say that I am using a software like Kazaa or WinMX or Emule or
eDonkey to download Movies,Software,Music. MAYBE I bought the
broadband EXACTLY for this purpose. What do you think?

With this peer-to-peer I reach easily 10K/s upload and 45k/s Download.
Downloading multiple files at the same time allows me to keep this
speed almost constantly. With a bit of arithmetics I obtain (10K +
45K) * 86,400 (seconds in a day of 24 hrs) = 4.75 GB.

This means that in 24 hours I download/upload almost as much as
(ACCORDINGLY TO THESE FUNNY GUYS FROM VIRGIN.NET) I am supposedely
allowed to download/upload in ONE WEEK!

This means that I will soon be forced to leave Virgin.Net (they
explicitily say they will interrupt my account) because I am not using
it at 1/6th of it's full potential!!!

Maybe these little idiots think that someone buys the broadband only
to check his/her email twice a day and download a cople of ring-tones
and wallpapers every week. I am speechless.

Heavy Downloaders: Beware and go elsewhere.


Micael
  #2  
Old December 15th 03, 03:43 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband,alt.uk.virgin-net.oldbies,alt.internet.providers.uk.aaisp,uk.media.broadband
Sunil Sood
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,590
Default Virgin.Net Broadband?!? Heavy Downloaders should think twice ....


"Micael Doyle" wrote in message
om...
My account is a standard 512Kb Download account. THIS MEANS THAT I
BOUGHT A 512Kb Download account for a 24/7 service. THIS IS WHAT I
BOUGHT! DIDN'T I?


Actually, you brought a 50:1 contended product not a leased line..

Regards
Sunil


  #3  
Old December 15th 03, 03:49 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband,alt.uk.virgin-net.oldbies,alt.internet.providers.uk.aaisp,uk.media.broadband
Tim
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Virgin.Net Broadband?!? Heavy Downloaders should think twice ....

"Micael Doyle" wrote in message
om...

snip

Let's say that I am using a software like Kazaa or WinMX or Emule or
eDonkey to download Movies,Software,Music.


Ever heard of the saying "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw
stones"?


  #4  
Old December 15th 03, 04:09 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband,uk.media.broadband,alt.internet.providers.uk.aaisp
Peter Morgan - 0870 432 9631
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 294
Default Virgin.Net Broadband?!? Heavy Downloaders should think twice ....

On 15 Dec 2003, (Micael Doyle) wrote:

My account is a standard 512Kb Download account. THIS MEANS THAT I
BOUGHT A 512Kb Download account for a 24/7 service. THIS IS WHAT I
BOUGHT! DIDN'T I?


Yes, with 50:1 contention, which means that to "be fair" you should
average 1/50th of the possible data you might expect to transfer on
512k/256k running 24h a day. If you exceed that 50th then I've no
sympathy for your complaint. If you are prevented from getting
data to reach 1/50th then I'd back you all the way.

Now, what do you think you'd be paying for 1:1 512k/256k ?
50 x 24.99 a month ? No, didn't think you'd like that option!


alt.internet.providers.uk.aaisp is an interesting newsgroup to have
posted to - do you think they'd let you run 24x7 at full pelt ?

Go check their AUP/notes and you'd see your type of use would not
match up without paying a higher fee than you are currently paying.
Good job Virgin only has one month notice needed, and no connection
fee. I trust you'll be checking the T+C for any future ISPs you're
considering so you don't find yourself on the wrong side of their
expectations of you as a customer. Peter M.
  #5  
Old December 15th 03, 04:15 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband,uk.media.broadband,alt.internet.providers.uk.aaisp
Rev Adrian Kennard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 29
Default Virgin.Net Broadband?!? Heavy Downloaders should think twice....

Peter Morgan - 0870 432 9631 wrote:
...
alt.internet.providers.uk.aaisp is an interesting newsgroup to have
posted to - do you think they'd let you run 24x7 at full pelt ?


Indeed, interesting. We do offer an "all you can eat" tariff, Office 500
High, which is currently 70+VAT per month (thats 82.25). The reason it
is this price is simple - bandwidth costs money. If you went to a well
connected data centre and tried to buy 500Kb/s bandwidth you would
easily be paying 50+VAT/month if not more even if no circuit cost at all
involved.

Go check their AUP/notes and you'd see your type of use would not
match up without paying a higher fee than you are currently paying.
Good job Virgin only has one month notice needed, and no connection
fee. I trust you'll be checking the T+C for any future ISPs you're
considering so you don't find yourself on the wrong side of their
expectations of you as a customer. Peter M.


Always well worth checking. I hope that we manage to make it very clear
what exactly people are buying when they look at our service, and I know
some ISPs could be clearer.

--
_ Rev. Adrian Kennard, Andrews & Arnold Ltd / AAISP
(_) _| _ . _ _ 4Mb/s ADSL, fixed IP, no min term http://adsl.ms/
( )(_|( |(_|| ) SpliceCom VoIP based PABXs http://aa.gg/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bond two ADSL lines? http://www.FireBrick.info/

  #6  
Old December 15th 03, 04:27 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband,uk.media.broadband,alt.internet.providers.uk.aaisp
Peter Morgan - 0870 432 9631
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 294
Default Virgin.Net Broadband?!? Heavy Downloaders should think twice ....

On 15 Dec 2003 16:15, A Kennard wrote:

Indeed, interesting. We do offer an "all you can eat" tariff, Office 500
High, which is currently 70+VAT per month (thats 82.25). The reason it
is this price is simple - bandwidth costs money.


Yes, I looked at that recently for someone, but didn't have the cost in
my head when I posted. Just found it funny to have been cross-posted
to a place where it would get an honest rather than "they're rotters
at Virgin.net for doing this" response :-)

I hope that we manage to make it very clear what exactly people are
buying when they look at our service,


No doubts or worries on that score Adrian - I've usually found your
pages comprehensive and on contention and why 24x7 at 512k isn't an
option (unless paid for) you were perfectly clear !! Peter M.
  #7  
Old December 15th 03, 04:53 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband,uk.media.broadband,alt.internet.providers.uk.aaisp
News Reader
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 26
Default Virgin.Net Broadband?!? Heavy Downloaders should think twice ....


Hello,

I agree with the sentiment expressed by the previous poster. Fair usage at
full bandwidth equivalent might be 8 - 10 to 16-20 hours a day of an on
average between 3 - 5 day week (i.e. an on average high-end expectation of
10 gigabytes a week - naturally with a fair assumption that that would be a
heavy week where a good proportion of other weeks can be expected to be
significantly lighter [i.e. around 50% of that level]).

However, as for those arguing the complete opposite end of the scale from
the OP (i.e. 1/50th equivalent - i.e. 9600 baud equivalent for 24/7 full
bandwidth ADSL, a dial-up connection would clearly be both more economic and
outperform) I suggest the following point.

To this end, my query relates to the intended eventual use of ADSL lines for
delivery of broadcast and on-demand video / tv. I would like to see any
prime time viewing experience if when 90% of a neighbourhood have their ADSL
serviced TV on, demanding some MPEGAV stream at 9600 baud!

That usage scenario shows that the contention ratios are intended as
provisos / limit guidelines rather than actually expected use performance.

I would appreciate some thought / input / feedback on your views about this
type of usage scenario (i.e. high-bandwidth on demand video applications at
peak times). Naturally, I imagine that by the time such a service /
technology became mainstream the entry-level ADSL bandwidth (or its
equivalent) would have reached a good 10/20 to 100/200 mbs (such that having
one on-demand video streaming request / requirement serviced would not
represent any more than a minimal background bandwidth usage).

Best wishes,



News Reader

--
*************************** IMPORTANT NOTE **************************
The above information is confidential to the addressee and may be
privileged. Unauthorised access and use is prohibited.
*************************** IMPORTANT NOTE **************************

"Peter Morgan - 0870 432 9631" wrote in message
.net...
On 15 Dec 2003 16:15, A Kennard wrote:

Indeed, interesting. We do offer an "all you can eat" tariff, Office 500
High, which is currently 70+VAT per month (thats 82.25). The reason it
is this price is simple - bandwidth costs money.


Yes, I looked at that recently for someone, but didn't have the cost in
my head when I posted. Just found it funny to have been cross-posted
to a place where it would get an honest rather than "they're rotters
at Virgin.net for doing this" response :-)

I hope that we manage to make it very clear what exactly people are
buying when they look at our service,


No doubts or worries on that score Adrian - I've usually found your
pages comprehensive and on contention and why 24x7 at 512k isn't an
option (unless paid for) you were perfectly clear !! Peter M.



  #8  
Old December 15th 03, 05:23 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband,uk.media.broadband,alt.internet.providers.uk.aaisp
Rev Adrian Kennard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 29
Default Virgin.Net Broadband?!? Heavy Downloaders should think twice....

News Reader wrote:
...
I would appreciate some thought / input / feedback on your views about this
type of usage scenario (i.e. high-bandwidth on demand video applications at
peak times). Naturally, I imagine that by the time such a service /
technology became mainstream the entry-level ADSL bandwidth (or its
equivalent) would have reached a good 10/20 to 100/200 mbs (such that having
one on-demand video streaming request / requirement serviced would not
represent any more than a minimal background bandwidth usage).


There is a VideoStream service aimed at video on demand, and it works on
(I believe) 3 to 1 contention for a circuit at 2.3Mb/s. Basically,
internet usage is changing, and theh infrastucture is based on one level
whilst some users expectations are based on a different model. I am
sure, over time, things will change, but also bandwidths available will
also change. You should try sitting on the data centre floor and trying
to work out what you can usefully do with a gigabit internet feed to
your laptop.

--
_ Rev. Adrian Kennard, Andrews & Arnold Ltd / AAISP
(_) _| _ . _ _ 4Mb/s ADSL, fixed IP, no min term http://adsl.ms/
( )(_|( |(_|| ) SpliceCom VoIP based PABXs http://aa.gg/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bond two ADSL lines? http://www.FireBrick.info/

  #9  
Old December 15th 03, 05:36 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband,alt.uk.virgin-net.oldbies,alt.internet.providers.uk.aaisp,uk.media.broadband
Chris Croughton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 23
Default Virgin.Net Broadband?!? Heavy Downloaders should think twice ....

On 15 Dec 2003 07:27:06 -0800, Micael Doyle
wrote:

Almost forced to leave Virgin.Net.
Please read below and let me know your opinions:

Below I report a copy of an email I received 2 weeks ago from
Virgin.Net.


Posting private email?

Actually, that email was very polite and reasonable, compared to most
ISPs who have put 'caps' on usage. NTL, for instance, didn't announce
it at all in any individual fashion (no emails to customers), some
others have gone straight to disabling 'heavy usage' accounts.

Yesterday I received the same threat on a paper copy. The letter
actually was a bit more lengthy and explicitily threatening about the
ridiculous 5GB/Week up/download limit:


So you didn't modify your behaviour to their request, and then you are
upset because they actually sent it to you on paper?

My account is a standard 512Kb Download account. THIS MEANS THAT I
BOUGHT A 512Kb Download account for a 24/7 service. THIS IS WHAT I
BOUGHT! DIDN'T I?


No. See what Freeserve did with their "24/7" dialup accounts, for
instance. "24/7" means that you have access all the time, not that you
can use full capacity all the time.

The "Information Superhighway" is a cliche, but in many ways it is
accurate. Imagine if everyone used their cars 24/7 ("I pay my road tax
so I can use the road all the time if I want!"), the roads couldn't
cope. In fact, just like Virgin's ISP, they can't cope even with the
current demand...

Let's say that I am using a software like Kazaa or WinMX or Emule or
eDonkey to download Movies,Software,Music. MAYBE I bought the
broadband EXACTLY for this purpose. What do you think?


I think you deserve what you get for not reading the terms and
conditions.

With this peer-to-peer I reach easily 10K/s upload and 45k/s Download.
Downloading multiple files at the same time allows me to keep this
speed almost constantly. With a bit of arithmetics I obtain (10K +
45K) * 86,400 (seconds in a day of 24 hrs) = 4.75 GB.


And what about everyone else? Resources aren't infinite.

This means that in 24 hours I download/upload almost as much as
(ACCORDINGLY TO THESE FUNNY GUYS FROM VIRGIN.NET) I am supposedely
allowed to download/upload in ONE WEEK!


Yeah, and you get chucked off for breaking their terms and conditions.

Maybe these little idiots think that someone buys the broadband only
to check his/her email twice a day and download a cople of ring-tones
and wallpapers every week. I am speechless.


5GB a week is a hell of a lot of data, about 7 CDs equivalent. And you
are paying how much for it? 25 quid a month? So you are basically
paying under a quid per CD full of data, I defy you to find anywhere
which would sell you the data for that little.

Heavy Downloaders: Beware and go elsewhere.


Good luck finding anywhere which doesn't charge you a lot more for that
sort of bandwidth. Even if there are places now, there won't be soon,
because no provider can afford to do it at that price (bandwidth costs
them as well).

Chris C
  #10  
Old December 15th 03, 05:37 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband,uk.media.broadband,alt.internet.providers.uk.aaisp
poster
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,542
Default Virgin.Net Broadband?!? Heavy Downloaders should think twice ....

On 15 Dec 2003 16:53, "News Reader" wrote:

9600 baud equivalent for 24/7 full bandwidth ADSL, a dial-up connection
would clearly be both more economic and outperform


It might well outperform, but would be more costly than many current
fees for ADSL, to have "always on" service. Current costs for Demon
at 64k 24x7 run to around 45 pounds a month (and there's the fact it
makes a line engaged, so a second line or Highway is a necessity for
voice communication from the same household, thus bumping costs with
a minimum of 9.50 a month. I put in the 50:1 as a simple reminder
that anyone believing they can run at full speed 24x7 should look
again at what they are "buying" before complaint that an ISP has
requested heavy users take action to reduce their load.

Virgin has set some limits which are probably well in excess of the
1/50th I suggested, because they know many people are "heavy users"
for a fraction of the time. It's really only those using peer-to-
peer software who are likely to hit any restrictions.

As for the likelihood of homes using an internet connection for all
their "TV" viewing, I doubt it will ever happen, as existing "one
to many" *broadcast* (DTT, satellite) methods are adequate and
the "interactive" (cable, satellite, DTT) methods have seen lower
use of the interactivity mechanisms (feedback, polls, etc) than many
were expecting a few years ago. It's perhaps only the Homechoice VoD
service where each household can choose different material to watch
that has a high traffic load for video to the home via phone line.
Sure, I can watch films from CinemaNow.com but have to accept it
is unlikely to ever match the quality of satellite, Freeview or
even TV as a PAL signal until 4+ Mbps is guaranteed. Peter M.
 




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