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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

Extended range ADSL installation failed



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 24th 04, 07:14 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Chris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 31
Default Extended range ADSL installation failed

I live in an area 4Km from the BT exchange as the crow flies and 9 Km
as the phone cable runs. ADSL on new extended range has failed BT
engineer's best attempts. Has anyone ever had success in getting BT
to run a new cable? There is house that can get 1Mb service 1.5 Km
away. Extending that cable run to our area would enable about a dozen
houses to get ADSL. At the moment we cannot get any digital services
whatsoever.
  #2  
Old September 24th 04, 09:00 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Peter Crosland
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 167
Default Extended range ADSL installation failed

You definitely have two chances: slim and none!

Gee Six Jay N Ess at spamcop.net


  #3  
Old September 24th 04, 09:22 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Kráftéé
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 126
Default Extended range ADSL installation failed

Chris wrote:
I live in an area 4Km from the BT exchange as the crow flies and 9
Km as the phone cable runs. ADSL on new extended range has failed
BT engineer's best attempts. Has anyone ever had success in
getting BT to run a new cable? There is house that can get 1Mb
service 1.5 Km away. Extending that cable run to our area would
enable about a dozen houses to get ADSL. At the moment we cannot
get any digital services whatsoever.


How much are you willing pay? (Note it may be cheaper to move house)


  #4  
Old September 24th 04, 11:18 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Iwan Davies
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25
Default Extended range ADSL installation failed

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 18:14:36 +0100, Chris wrote:

I live in an area 4Km from the BT exchange as the crow flies and 9 Km
as the phone cable runs. ADSL on new extended range has failed BT
engineer's best attempts. Has anyone ever had success in getting BT
to run a new cable? There is house that can get 1Mb service 1.5 Km
away. Extending that cable run to our area would enable about a dozen
houses to get ADSL. At the moment we cannot get any digital services
whatsoever.


Can you talk to the guy at the house 1.5 km away about installing another
line on his premises and you locating a wireless router with suitable
antenna there? 802.11b wireless over 1.5 km should provide at least 1 MB
with a suitable antenna, with line of sight of course.

Running the cable is likely to cost thousands if not tens of thousands of
pounds, plus all the time and inconvenience it will take with way-leaves,
etc.

Alternatively, an "accident" that totally decommissioned the cabinet
through which you are connected might force BT into rerouting you... Any
expendable chavs in souped-up Novas in your area? ;-)

Iwan
  #5  
Old September 25th 04, 01:29 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
David Wood
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 88
Default Extended range ADSL installation failed

In message , Chris
writes
I live in an area 4Km from the BT exchange as the crow flies and 9 Km
as the phone cable runs. ADSL on new extended range has failed BT
engineer's best attempts.


Do you happen to know the attenuation figures - or were they not
measured as there wasn't any sign of an ADSL signal?


Has anyone ever had success in getting BT
to run a new cable?


There's been a lot of people asking about new cable since 6 September -
and I've not yet heard of anyone who has been successful when the issue
is that their line is just too long for ADSL to work.

In areas where people are pressing for copper overlay to be provided for
TPON - that is providing some copper pairs to areas currently served by
passive fibre (which doesn't support DSL), progress is often very slow
despite there being hundreds or even thousands of subscribers in the
affected area. In at least one case where BT have indicated they will do
the work, the promised work won't happen until early next year at the
earliest.


The justification for extensive new cabling to people who are too far
from the exchange is much harder to make - the number of potential
subscribers is often much lower, and there's no existing ductwork (or
cable routes even if there's no spare duct space) to utilise.


There is house that can get 1Mb service 1.5 Km
away.


BT now install 1Mbit ADSL with 60dB attenuation. I'm unclear here
whether that house has 1Mbit, or you're going by the checker results
(which are estimates only, and if it says 'may' for 1Mbit, it may be
worse than 60dB).

The highest working attenuation figure I've heard of for 512 under the
new limits was somewhere around 72dB, which is somewhere around 1km of
cable. It has to be stressed that the chances of stable operation with
72dB attenuation are somewhat finely balanced.


Extending that cable run to our area would enable about a dozen
houses to get ADSL.


It's near certain that 12 ADSL users would come nowhere near justifying
the capital expenditure involved. A figure of GBP30 per metre for new
cabling has been bandied about in ADSLguide recently - though without
much explanation or justification.

The cost of planning, sorting out wayleaves, trenching, duct work, cable
laying, testing and commissioning will not be cheap. Even if only 1km of
cable has to be run at GBP10 per metre, have you got a spare ten
thousand to pay BT?


BT will only lay new cable if you want to install something with rather
more substantial rental charges than ADSL (even ADSL 12 times over - I'm
thinking more about ISDN30e or a leased line) - and even then you'll be
charged excess construction costs once the relatively small construction
costs allowed in the connection charge of the product are passed.


At the moment we cannot get any digital services
whatsoever.


There's no universal service obligation for anything other than
telephony (which is basically voice and fax).


BT have now removed their policy limitations on ADSL - the policy now is
that they'll activate it, if it doesn't work they'll take what measures
they can with existing line plant to make it work, and only then will
they remove the ADSL and give up. This is rather an improvement over the
previous rules, where sometimes lines that would work were ruled out on
policy grounds.

However, this new policy doesn't remove the technological limitations:
excessive attenuation or too much noise on the line for ADSL to work.


There are always going to be places where it's uneconomic for BT to
provide ADSL service. BT are talking in terms of the extended reach
scheme, when combined with those exchanges currently enabled and the
exchanges that BT are planning to enable, increasing ADSL coverage to
about that of analogue TV. I can't think there's many incentives to go
much further. BT are amenable to being offered support to enable
exchanges currently deemed unviable, but when you're talking about
extensive new cabling that may only help a limited number of users, the
chances are that such measures will always be uneconomic.

Maybe in the future BT will themselves offer wireless based products -
supposedly they are going to experiment with WiMAX based technologies in
Northern Ireland.


For now, one option has already been mentioned - attempt to set up point
to point wireless to somewhere that is in range of ADSL.

Another option is satellite broadband (so long as latency isn't a
problem).

A third option is to settle for BT Midband / Highway / ISDN2e - assuming
that your line meets the limits for that.

A fourth option is to see if any of the wireless ISPs are interested
(unlikely if it's just a small pocket of potential users in a rural area
- the cost of the backhaul circuit - the sort of leased line that BT
would install to your kind of location, though at a cost - would make
offering service in such an area uneconomic).



David
--
David Wood

  #6  
Old September 25th 04, 09:41 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Chris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 31
Default Extended range ADSL installation failed

Many thanks for all the comments - helpful and otherwise!

No figures were measured as the engineer stated that he needed to get
some recognition of a DSL signal before he could take any readings.
he did go back to the cabinet from where the line emanates and checked
the figure there which was 30 dBA but that is a long way away.

Unfortunately my line has been rejected for any digital service,
Highway, Midband or whatever, When being tested for these the BT line
engineer considered that I was lucky to be able to get a dial-up modem
connection! I normally manage to get around 40,000- 41,200. 45,200 is
the best I have ever achieved.

I have already started to explore the point to point wireless option.
That might end up being the only choice. From contacts I have learned
that BT has itself been surprised just how long a line they have been
able to get ADSL to synchronise. I am told the current record is over
13 Km. Presumably this is nice new cable with minimal joins? I don't
think that my line problems are down to aluminum or anything like that
as I am told that this is not an issue in Scotland where I live.

My only hope is that the overall capacity is really stretched where I
live with DACS boxes all over the place that a new cable might be
needed at some stage to enable BT to meet the stated statutory
obligation. I don't really want a large housing development near me
but it might be the only alternative to moving!

I'll just have to put my ADSL router back in its box and keep
hoping....!

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 00:29:55 +0100, David Wood
wrote:

In message , Chris
writes
I live in an area 4Km from the BT exchange as the crow flies and 9 Km
as the phone cable runs. ADSL on new extended range has failed BT
engineer's best attempts.


Do you happen to know the attenuation figures - or were they not
measured as there wasn't any sign of an ADSL signal?


Has anyone ever had success in getting BT
to run a new cable?


There's been a lot of people asking about new cable since 6 September -
and I've not yet heard of anyone who has been successful when the issue
is that their line is just too long for ADSL to work.

In areas where people are pressing for copper overlay to be provided for
TPON - that is providing some copper pairs to areas currently served by
passive fibre (which doesn't support DSL), progress is often very slow
despite there being hundreds or even thousands of subscribers in the
affected area. In at least one case where BT have indicated they will do
the work, the promised work won't happen until early next year at the
earliest.


The justification for extensive new cabling to people who are too far
from the exchange is much harder to make - the number of potential
subscribers is often much lower, and there's no existing ductwork (or
cable routes even if there's no spare duct space) to utilise.


There is house that can get 1Mb service 1.5 Km
away.


BT now install 1Mbit ADSL with 60dB attenuation. I'm unclear here
whether that house has 1Mbit, or you're going by the checker results
(which are estimates only, and if it says 'may' for 1Mbit, it may be
worse than 60dB).

The highest working attenuation figure I've heard of for 512 under the
new limits was somewhere around 72dB, which is somewhere around 1km of
cable. It has to be stressed that the chances of stable operation with
72dB attenuation are somewhat finely balanced.


Extending that cable run to our area would enable about a dozen
houses to get ADSL.


It's near certain that 12 ADSL users would come nowhere near justifying
the capital expenditure involved. A figure of GBP30 per metre for new
cabling has been bandied about in ADSLguide recently - though without
much explanation or justification.

The cost of planning, sorting out wayleaves, trenching, duct work, cable
laying, testing and commissioning will not be cheap. Even if only 1km of
cable has to be run at GBP10 per metre, have you got a spare ten
thousand to pay BT?


BT will only lay new cable if you want to install something with rather
more substantial rental charges than ADSL (even ADSL 12 times over - I'm
thinking more about ISDN30e or a leased line) - and even then you'll be
charged excess construction costs once the relatively small construction
costs allowed in the connection charge of the product are passed.


At the moment we cannot get any digital services
whatsoever.


There's no universal service obligation for anything other than
telephony (which is basically voice and fax).


BT have now removed their policy limitations on ADSL - the policy now is
that they'll activate it, if it doesn't work they'll take what measures
they can with existing line plant to make it work, and only then will
they remove the ADSL and give up. This is rather an improvement over the
previous rules, where sometimes lines that would work were ruled out on
policy grounds.

However, this new policy doesn't remove the technological limitations:
excessive attenuation or too much noise on the line for ADSL to work.


There are always going to be places where it's uneconomic for BT to
provide ADSL service. BT are talking in terms of the extended reach
scheme, when combined with those exchanges currently enabled and the
exchanges that BT are planning to enable, increasing ADSL coverage to
about that of analogue TV. I can't think there's many incentives to go
much further. BT are amenable to being offered support to enable
exchanges currently deemed unviable, but when you're talking about
extensive new cabling that may only help a limited number of users, the
chances are that such measures will always be uneconomic.

Maybe in the future BT will themselves offer wireless based products -
supposedly they are going to experiment with WiMAX based technologies in
Northern Ireland.


For now, one option has already been mentioned - attempt to set up point
to point wireless to somewhere that is in range of ADSL.

Another option is satellite broadband (so long as latency isn't a
problem).

A third option is to settle for BT Midband / Highway / ISDN2e - assuming
that your line meets the limits for that.

A fourth option is to see if any of the wireless ISPs are interested
(unlikely if it's just a small pocket of potential users in a rural area
- the cost of the backhaul circuit - the sort of leased line that BT
would install to your kind of location, though at a cost - would make
offering service in such an area uneconomic).



David


  #7  
Old September 25th 04, 11:18 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Kráftéé
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 126
Default Extended range ADSL installation failed

Chris wrote:

My only hope is that the overall capacity is really stretched where
I live with DACS boxes all over the place that a new cable might be
needed at some stage to enable BT to meet the stated statutory
obligation. I don't really want a large housing development near me
but it might be the only alternative to moving!


Wouldn't make much difference as if they pulled new cables in they would
just follow the old duct work (which your cables are already in) so there
wouldn't be much improvement in cable length....


 




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