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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

Should NNTP access be unbundled?



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 8th 05, 10:25 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Paul Busby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Should NNTP access be unbundled?

I don't know what the percentage of internet users access NGs but I suspect
it's under 10%. Is it worth bundling this in the price or would regular
users be better off having decent access as an option from their ISP? Are we
being unfairly subsidised by other users for what's a pretty poor service
anyhow? A look at my header will show I'm using individual.de which is fine
for non-binaries.

Would it be viable for providers to drop their non-bundled price by an
appreciable amount & not sustain a drop in margins?

--
Thank people in advance? Thanking or cursing them afterwards at least gives
some feedback!


  #2  
Old February 8th 05, 10:57 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Ian Stirling
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 807
Default Should NNTP access be unbundled?

Paul Busby wrote:
I don't know what the percentage of internet users access NGs but I suspect
it's under 10%. Is it worth bundling this in the price or would regular
users be better off having decent access as an option from their ISP? Are we
being unfairly subsidised by other users for what's a pretty poor service
anyhow? A look at my header will show I'm using individual.de which is fine
for non-binaries.

Would it be viable for providers to drop their non-bundled price by an
appreciable amount & not sustain a drop in margins?


If you're talking about the price of nntp access, for binaries, then the
best thing for all the other users is to turn it off, and block access
to external news-servers.

Binary news servers are probably not the major expense.
If 1000 users of plusnet use the news servers to the limits, that's
15GB/month*1000.
Or several thousand pounds per month. (from costs from BT to move the data
to the users(not applicable to some services like bulldog who use LLU or
cable operators)

A text newsserver is nearly free to run, and can be set up by almost anyone
with a semblance of a clue.
A binary newsserver needs terabytes of fast disks, and either lots of money
thrown at it, or quite skilled people.

Having said this, one of the reasons I have stayed with plusnet is the
newsserver.
With the introduction of the cap, I'm unsure what I'll do in the future.
However, I think I'll have to wait for another 3 months or so, to see
how the ISP market settles out.

Several ISPs have said that they are throttling their news-server, and
limiting users access to it, and several others have introduced caps on
total traffic.
I don't expect that Tiscalis recent announcemnt of 30GB caps on total traffic
will be the last.
  #3  
Old February 8th 05, 11:03 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Andrew Crane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default Should NNTP access be unbundled?


"Paul Busby" wrote in message
...
I don't know what the percentage of internet users access NGs but I

suspect
it's under 10%. Is it worth bundling this in the price or would regular
users be better off having decent access as an option from their ISP? Are

we
being unfairly subsidised by other users for what's a pretty poor service
anyhow? A look at my header will show I'm using individual.de which is

fine
for non-binaries.

Would it be viable for providers to drop their non-bundled price by an
appreciable amount & not sustain a drop in margins?


Usenet costs very little to run in comparison with any other aspect of
providing a broadband service. If you want decent access as an option, go to
a decent ISP. Usenet won't be a factor in decent access as long as your ISP
has plenty of capacity for both usenet and end-user access.

Regards
Andrew


--
Inweb Networks. Quality internet and telecoms services
Sales: 08000 612222 Support: 08704322222. http://www.inweb.co.uk
E1 call share. 0800, 0845 and 0870 numbers - best rates. Resellers welcome


  #4  
Old February 8th 05, 11:42 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Paul Busby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Should NNTP access be unbundled?

Thus spake Ian Stirling:
Paul Busby wrote:
I don't know what the percentage of internet users access NGs but I
suspect it's under 10%. Is it worth bundling this in the price or
would regular users be better off having decent access as an option
from their ISP? Are we being unfairly subsidised by other users for
what's a pretty poor service anyhow? A look at my header will show
I'm using individual.de which is fine for non-binaries.

Would it be viable for providers to drop their non-bundled price by
an appreciable amount & not sustain a drop in margins?


If you're talking about the price of nntp access, for binaries, then
the best thing for all the other users is to turn it off, and block
access to external news-servers.


Why would they want to bar external access - surely that's a different
issue?

Binary news servers are probably not the major expense.
If 1000 users of plusnet use the news servers to the limits, that's
15GB/month*1000.
Or several thousand pounds per month. (from costs from BT to move the
data to the users(not applicable to some services like bulldog who
use LLU or cable operators)


Certainly not the major expense but an overhead used by a minority?

A text newsserver is nearly free to run, and can be set up by almost
anyone with a semblance of a clue.
A binary newsserver needs terabytes of fast disks, and either lots of
money thrown at it, or quite skilled people.


Exactly.

Having said this, one of the reasons I have stayed with plusnet is the
newsserver.
With the introduction of the cap, I'm unsure what I'll do in the
future. However, I think I'll have to wait for another 3 months or
so, to see
how the ISP market settles out.


I'm one of the Nildram users who /didn't/ migrate to PN! Some who did, then
returned rather quietly. I'm also someone who laughed heartily when hearing
about PN's "capping". What PN appeared to have not done was warn offending
customers of their intentions in a timely manner.

Several ISPs have said that they are throttling their news-server, and
limiting users access to it, and several others have introduced caps
on total traffic.
I don't expect that Tiscalis recent announcemnt of 30GB caps on total
traffic will be the last.


ISPs need to be upfront when stating that their service is uncapped then
hiding behind "fair usage" clauses which contradict what many people find
"uncapped" to mean. To me, it doesn't mean a leased line - ADSL is a
contended service without QOS guarantees!

What's wrong with providers pricing their products with varying caps from
PAYG 1G up to ~200GBs or more per month? IMO, capping to some degree is
inevitable - the industry just needs to be honest about it.

--
Thank people in advance? Thanking or cursing them afterwards at least
gives some feedback!


  #5  
Old February 8th 05, 12:42 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Ian Stirling
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 807
Default Should NNTP access be unbundled?

Paul Busby wrote:
Thus spake Ian Stirling:
Paul Busby wrote:
I don't know what the percentage of internet users access NGs but I
suspect it's under 10%. Is it worth bundling this in the price or
would regular users be better off having decent access as an option
from their ISP? Are we being unfairly subsidised by other users for
what's a pretty poor service anyhow? A look at my header will show
I'm using individual.de which is fine for non-binaries.

Would it be viable for providers to drop their non-bundled price by
an appreciable amount & not sustain a drop in margins?


If you're talking about the price of nntp access, for binaries, then
the best thing for all the other users is to turn it off, and block
access to external news-servers.


Why would they want to bar external access - surely that's a different
issue?


Because if you turn of the existing binary server, most of the users
will simply put down $10.99/month or whatever, and get access to an
external one, so you don't save the bandwidth cost.
Snip
Having said this, one of the reasons I have stayed with plusnet is the
newsserver.
With the introduction of the cap, I'm unsure what I'll do in the
future. However, I think I'll have to wait for another 3 months or
so, to see
how the ISP market settles out.


I'm one of the Nildram users who /didn't/ migrate to PN! Some who did, then
returned rather quietly. I'm also someone who laughed heartily when hearing
about PN's "capping". What PN appeared to have not done was warn offending
customers of their intentions in a timely manner.


PN have not (as of yet) introduced capping, and we don't know what levels
it will be set at.

Several ISPs have said that they are throttling their news-server, and
limiting users access to it, and several others have introduced caps
on total traffic.
I don't expect that Tiscalis recent announcemnt of 30GB caps on total
traffic will be the last.


ISPs need to be upfront when stating that their service is uncapped then
hiding behind "fair usage" clauses which contradict what many people find
"uncapped" to mean. To me, it doesn't mean a leased line - ADSL is a
contended service without QOS guarantees!

What's wrong with providers pricing their products with varying caps from
PAYG 1G up to ~200GBs or more per month? IMO, capping to some degree is
inevitable - the industry just needs to be honest about it.


Because to not cross subsidise the 200GBs accounts, they need to be priced
at a level at which few users would pay, probably over 100 quid a month.
  #6  
Old February 8th 05, 02:07 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Paul Busby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Should NNTP access be unbundled?

Thus spake Andrew Crane:
"Paul Busby" wrote in message
...
I don't know what the percentage of internet users access NGs but I
suspect it's under 10%. Is it worth bundling this in the price or
would regular users be better off having decent access as an option
from their ISP? Are we being unfairly subsidised by other users for
what's a pretty poor service anyhow? A look at my header will show
I'm using individual.de which is fine for non-binaries.

Would it be viable for providers to drop their non-bundled price by
an appreciable amount & not sustain a drop in margins?


Usenet costs very little to run in comparison with any other aspect of
providing a broadband service. If you want decent access as an
option, go to a decent ISP. Usenet won't be a factor in decent access
as long as your ISP has plenty of capacity for both usenet and
end-user access.

Even binary news provision? Nildram don't seem to think so:
http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthre...o=#Post1624285
same link:
http://tinyurl.com/5vyv9
I rarely access binary groups so individual.de is fine for me & free. The
point is the costs seem to be significant enough for such a few number of
customers who use it. I'm certainly not against some degree of cross
financing, I'm not advocating toll roads or purchasing health care at the
point of need here.

Every provider I'm been with (Dircon, Tele2 & Nildram) have provided some
degree of useable binary access. Some providers don't even have pop3.

--
Thank people in advance? Thanking or cursing them afterwards at least
gives some feedback!


  #7  
Old February 8th 05, 02:39 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Andrew Crane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default Should NNTP access be unbundled?


"Paul Busby" wrote in message
...
Thus spake Andrew Crane:
"Paul Busby" wrote in message
...
I don't know what the percentage of internet users access NGs but I
suspect it's under 10%. Is it worth bundling this in the price or
would regular users be better off having decent access as an option
from their ISP? Are we being unfairly subsidised by other users for
what's a pretty poor service anyhow? A look at my header will show
I'm using individual.de which is fine for non-binaries.

Would it be viable for providers to drop their non-bundled price by
an appreciable amount & not sustain a drop in margins?


Usenet costs very little to run in comparison with any other aspect of
providing a broadband service. If you want decent access as an
option, go to a decent ISP. Usenet won't be a factor in decent access
as long as your ISP has plenty of capacity for both usenet and
end-user access.

Even binary news provision? Nildram don't seem to think so:


It depends on how long you hold it for and how much you take. We for
instance reserve about 100GBytes for binaries and keep them for as long as
it takes to write 100GBytes (ie, after we get 100GBytes we start back at the
beginning of that 100GByte space). Text stuff we keep much longer and
UK-related stuff stays live for months.

We don't take warez and binaries over 2.5Mbytes so there's not too much of a
strain on resources.

Regards
Andrew


  #8  
Old February 8th 05, 03:50 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Paul Busby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Should NNTP access be unbundled?

Thus spake Andrew Crane:
"Paul Busby" wrote in message
...
Thus spake Andrew Crane:
"Paul Busby" wrote in message
...
I don't know what the percentage of internet users access NGs but I
suspect it's under 10%. Is it worth bundling this in the price or
would regular users be better off having decent access as an option
from their ISP? Are we being unfairly subsidised by other users for
what's a pretty poor service anyhow? A look at my header will show
I'm using individual.de which is fine for non-binaries.

Would it be viable for providers to drop their non-bundled price by
an appreciable amount & not sustain a drop in margins?

Usenet costs very little to run in comparison with any other aspect
of providing a broadband service. If you want decent access as an
option, go to a decent ISP. Usenet won't be a factor in decent
access as long as your ISP has plenty of capacity for both usenet
and end-user access.

Even binary news provision? Nildram don't seem to think so:


It depends on how long you hold it for and how much you take. We for
instance reserve about 100GBytes for binaries and keep them for as
long as it takes to write 100GBytes (ie, after we get 100GBytes we
start back at the beginning of that 100GByte space). Text stuff we
keep much longer and UK-related stuff stays live for months.

We don't take warez and binaries over 2.5Mbytes so there's not too
much of a strain on resources.


The problem with Nildram's in-house NNTP service was that retention hung
around 3 days with pretty poor completion. Now they are in trouble for users
having to login to Giganews with their Nildram login & password rather than
a dedicated one - authentication done at Giganews' end, not Nildram's.
100GBs sounds tiny to me. Good luck with your new 1Mb service.

--
Thank people in advance? Thanking or cursing them afterwards at least
gives some feedback!


  #9  
Old February 8th 05, 08:18 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Paul Busby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Should NNTP access be unbundled?

Thus spake Ian Stirling:
Snipped
Why would they want to bar external access - surely that's a
different issue?


Because if you turn of the existing binary server, most of the users
will simply put down $10.99/month or whatever, and get access to an
external one, so you don't save the bandwidth cost.


I understand this now - thought you meant end-users barring external
access - I'm blaming it on having flu

Snipped
What's wrong with providers pricing their products with varying caps
from PAYG 1G up to ~200GBs or more per month? IMO, capping to some
degree is inevitable - the industry just needs to be honest about it.


Because to not cross subsidise the 200GBs accounts, they need to be
priced at a level at which few users would pay, probably over 100
quid a month.


I'd be happy with some cross subsidy but do wonder about the legality or
necessity of d/l'ing over ~200GB/m. I'd suspect a large percentage doesn't
even get read/viewed/listened to unless they really are that sad. As for
revealing the true costs - so be it. Anyway, I'm probably subsidising
heavier users less than most.

Perhaps what's needed is some ISP's to appeal to gamers in particular.
Trying to cater for heavy users is a non-starter, as you point out.

--
Thank people in advance? Thanking or cursing them afterwards at least
gives some feedback!


  #10  
Old February 9th 05, 06:53 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Chris Blunt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 104
Default Should NNTP access be unbundled?

On 08 Feb 2005 12:42:34 GMT, Ian Stirling
wrote:

Paul Busby wrote:
Thus spake Ian Stirling:
Paul Busby wrote:
I don't know what the percentage of internet users access NGs but I
suspect it's under 10%. Is it worth bundling this in the price or
would regular users be better off having decent access as an option
from their ISP? Are we being unfairly subsidised by other users for
what's a pretty poor service anyhow? A look at my header will show
I'm using individual.de which is fine for non-binaries.

Would it be viable for providers to drop their non-bundled price by
an appreciable amount & not sustain a drop in margins?

If you're talking about the price of nntp access, for binaries, then
the best thing for all the other users is to turn it off, and block
access to external news-servers.


Why would they want to bar external access - surely that's a different
issue?


Because if you turn of the existing binary server, most of the users
will simply put down $10.99/month or whatever, and get access to an
external one, so you don't save the bandwidth cost.


Then why target just NNTP services? What about the many other types of
file download and streaming services that take up just as much
bandwidth? You may as well just cap the monthly data limit altogether
if that's the objective.

Chris

 




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