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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

Clara: immed. disconnect on P2P complaint !!



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 25th 05, 01:27 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Beck
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 237
Default Clara: immed. disconnect on P2P complaint !!


wrote in message
...
Need to watch this particular ISP.

Some weeks ago I downloaded (P2P, Emule) an old bit of software.
Yesterday I found the ADSL connection dead. It turned out that if
Clara get a complaint from somebody, they (without warning to the
customer, and they confirmed this) immediately disconnect the account.

I am going to dump this outfit right away. Anybody could fine a
complaint like this, and cause anybody with Clara to have their
account disconnected. They have some corporate accounts....

I am not even a heavy user, a gig a month of data at most.


Have you had it confirmed from Claranet that your service has been
disconnected because of the use of P2P software?
You need to ask yourself whether you have been in breach of their terms and
conditions. Its not a breach by simply using P2P software as people can
download free stuff on there. But if you have been illegally downloading
copyrighted material then you are clearly in breach of their terms and
conditions and they have a right to suspend your account for illegal
activity.


  #2  
Old February 25th 05, 04:18 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Beck
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 237
Default Clara: immed. disconnect on P2P complaint !!


wrote in message
...

"Beck" wrote:

But if you have been illegally downloading
copyrighted material then you are clearly in breach of their terms and
conditions and they have a right to suspend your account for illegal
activity.


The customer has also got a right to be notified beforehand, or at the
same time.

The reason is that is could be a mistake, or a malicious action.

I spoke to them today. I asked the man how many business customers
they have. His reply was along the lines of "thousands". I pointed out
that I could close down any of those accounts, and cause massive
problems for businesses who host real business websites with them,
just by filing a spurious complaint. He agreed but could not offer any
other comment.....

Anyway, I've gone elsewhere, life is too short to bang one's head
against a brick wall.


I agree with what you say and they should have put any action in writing.
If you wish to complain you could go via ISPA


  #4  
Old February 25th 05, 06:42 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Spin Dryer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 291
Default Clara: immed. disconnect on P2P complaint !!

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:13:08 +0000, ] said :-


"Beck" wrote:

But if you have been illegally downloading
copyrighted material then you are clearly in breach of their terms and
conditions and they have a right to suspend your account for illegal
activity.


The customer has also got a right to be notified beforehand, or at the
same time.

The reason is that is could be a mistake, or a malicious action.

I spoke to them today. I asked the man how many business customers
they have. His reply was along the lines of "thousands". I pointed out
that I could close down any of those accounts, and cause massive
problems for businesses who host real business websites with them,
just by filing a spurious complaint. He agreed but could not offer any
other comment.....

Anyway, I've gone elsewhere, life is too short to bang one's head
against a brick wall.



You have read the T&C right ?

Did you see the post by Grant ?
  #5  
Old February 25th 05, 09:46 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Phil D.Long
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Clara: immed. disconnect on P2P complaint !!


wrote in message
...

"Beck" wrote:

But if you have been illegally downloading
copyrighted material then you are clearly in breach of their terms and
conditions and they have a right to suspend your account for illegal
activity.


The customer has also got a right to be notified beforehand, or at the
same time.

The reason is that is could be a mistake, or a malicious action.

I spoke to them today. I asked the man how many business customers
they have. His reply was along the lines of "thousands". I pointed out
that I could close down any of those accounts, and cause massive
problems for businesses who host real business websites with them,
just by filing a spurious complaint. He agreed but could not offer any
other comment.....

Anyway, I've gone elsewhere, life is too short to bang one's head
against a brick wall.


That sounds like a very bad way to deal with this issue... I'll tell you
why:

I work for Zen Internet, and have dealt with Copyright notices in the past
extensively. With the odd exceptions (generally personal reports) they are
all automatically generated by systems which - as far as we can tell - are
not manned and little attention is given to whether reports are accurate or
not.

In our case we receive many complaints from one or two organisations which
are for IP ranges of other Internet Service Providers, and repeated messages
from us to the complainant stating that their records are wrong have gone
ignored. In the case of one copyright complainant we informed them that if
they continued to ignore requests to correct their records we would treat
their notifications as unverified and cease to inform the customer. We
received no reply.

Other complainants fail to give sufficient detail to be able to specifically
say that a customer is doing what they claim, and on who's behalf they are
acting. For example, they may state something like "We represent the
following organisations: list of several film distributors" and "The
following IP has been distrubuting copyright materials, such as: a name of
film".

They don't provide details of who that film belongs to, what it is, and they
don't explicitly state they have definately detected a copyright abuse.
While it may seem obvious that, for example, "The Saw" is a film protected
by copyright, there is no way for any ISP to verify that report. They've
provided a title, without any information on how they have verified that a
breach of copyright is taking place - or even stating who's copyright is
being breached. Again, requests for them to provide further information are
ignored (we ask for year of release, directors name, copyright holder and
file name as we need to know that they have checked that the material is
what they claim to have detected).

With Peer-to-Peer the ISP is not liable for the actions of the users as,
much like news, the ISP is a conduit for the transfer - not the initiator of
the command to distribute. However, Zen have recognised that we have a duty
to inform the user, and we also believe in operating a "safe harbour"
policy, similar to what has been put forward for Hosting (where the ISP
would be liable). Essentially we're saying we can't verify any reports (it
would be illegal for us to download it, as by downloading it the ISP would
be creating a copy), but will inform the customer and take action should
they fail to either state they have the right to distribute the file (in
which case they need to fill in a counter-claim, with name, address, reason
why they believe they are legally permitted to distribute - this would be
sent to the complainant) or fail to take action which results in a repeat
report, relating to the same material(s), after a reasonable time period.
If they state they never had the material, then we ask the complainant to
provide sufficient evidence to support their claim of breach before we would
be able to take action under our Terms and Conditions.

In the end it's about proof. Simply taking somebody's word for it (given
the unverified nature of the complaints) is just not the right way to do
something. If there is no reasonable evidence that a breach of the T&Cs has
taken place then an ISP can not take action by invoking a clause in those
T&Cs. If a complainant can not say that they have manually verified the
accuracy of a report, that a breach of copyright has definately occurred,
then that evidence can not be used.

ta,
Phil D.Long


  #6  
Old February 26th 05, 12:35 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Muxton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 143
Default Clara: immed. disconnect on P2P complaint !!

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:46:44 -0000, "Phil D.Long"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .

"Beck" wrote:

But if you have been illegally downloading
copyrighted material then you are clearly in breach of their terms and
conditions and they have a right to suspend your account for illegal
activity.


The customer has also got a right to be notified beforehand, or at the
same time.

The reason is that is could be a mistake, or a malicious action.

I spoke to them today. I asked the man how many business customers
they have. His reply was along the lines of "thousands". I pointed out
that I could close down any of those accounts, and cause massive
problems for businesses who host real business websites with them,
just by filing a spurious complaint. He agreed but could not offer any
other comment.....

Anyway, I've gone elsewhere, life is too short to bang one's head
against a brick wall.


That sounds like a very bad way to deal with this issue... I'll tell you
why:

I work for Zen Internet, and have dealt with Copyright notices in the past
extensively. With the odd exceptions (generally personal reports) they are
all automatically generated by systems which - as far as we can tell - are
not manned and little attention is given to whether reports are accurate or
not.

In our case we receive many complaints from one or two organisations which
are for IP ranges of other Internet Service Providers, and repeated messages
from us to the complainant stating that their records are wrong have gone
ignored. In the case of one copyright complainant we informed them that if
they continued to ignore requests to correct their records we would treat
their notifications as unverified and cease to inform the customer. We
received no reply.

Other complainants fail to give sufficient detail to be able to specifically
say that a customer is doing what they claim, and on who's behalf they are
acting. For example, they may state something like "We represent the
following organisations: list of several film distributors" and "The
following IP has been distrubuting copyright materials, such as: a name of
film".

They don't provide details of who that film belongs to, what it is, and they
don't explicitly state they have definately detected a copyright abuse.
While it may seem obvious that, for example, "The Saw" is a film protected
by copyright, there is no way for any ISP to verify that report. They've
provided a title, without any information on how they have verified that a
breach of copyright is taking place - or even stating who's copyright is
being breached. Again, requests for them to provide further information are
ignored (we ask for year of release, directors name, copyright holder and
file name as we need to know that they have checked that the material is
what they claim to have detected).

With Peer-to-Peer the ISP is not liable for the actions of the users as,
much like news, the ISP is a conduit for the transfer - not the initiator of
the command to distribute. However, Zen have recognised that we have a duty
to inform the user, and we also believe in operating a "safe harbour"
policy, similar to what has been put forward for Hosting (where the ISP
would be liable). Essentially we're saying we can't verify any reports (it
would be illegal for us to download it, as by downloading it the ISP would
be creating a copy), but will inform the customer and take action should
they fail to either state they have the right to distribute the file (in
which case they need to fill in a counter-claim, with name, address, reason
why they believe they are legally permitted to distribute - this would be
sent to the complainant) or fail to take action which results in a repeat
report, relating to the same material(s), after a reasonable time period.
If they state they never had the material, then we ask the complainant to
provide sufficient evidence to support their claim of breach before we would
be able to take action under our Terms and Conditions.

In the end it's about proof. Simply taking somebody's word for it (given
the unverified nature of the complaints) is just not the right way to do
something. If there is no reasonable evidence that a breach of the T&Cs has
taken place then an ISP can not take action by invoking a clause in those
T&Cs. If a complainant can not say that they have manually verified the
accuracy of a report, that a breach of copyright has definately occurred,
then that evidence can not be used.

ta,
Phil D.Long


Hang on, Phil, what, in any of the posts that have gone before, gives
you the idea that this relates to downloading of copyright protected
film of any sort? The OP openly admitted that it was some old
software. Okay, he maybe naively assumed that old means out of
copyright, and probably wrongly so, but it doesn't appear to be TV or
movie material.

And as far as Zen's AUP goes, which you seem to be stating above,
remember that the OP ain't subscribed to your service so your AUP
means jack ****e to him. The one he /used/ to subscribe to does, or
did.

If he migrates to you (i.e. Zen), OTOH, in the light of his
experiences with his previous provider, he may wish to take notice of
the info you've given here

Jake

  #7  
Old February 26th 05, 12:46 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Beck
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 237
Default Clara: immed. disconnect on P2P complaint !!


"Muxton" wrote in message
...

Hang on, Phil, what, in any of the posts that have gone before, gives
you the idea that this relates to downloading of copyright protected
film of any sort? The OP openly admitted that it was some old
software. Okay, he maybe naively assumed that old means out of
copyright, and probably wrongly so, but it doesn't appear to be TV or
movie material.

And as far as Zen's AUP goes, which you seem to be stating above,
remember that the OP ain't subscribed to your service so your AUP
means jack ****e to him. The one he /used/ to subscribe to does, or
did.

If he migrates to you (i.e. Zen), OTOH, in the light of his
experiences with his previous provider, he may wish to take notice of
the info you've given here


Phil's post was spot on. He was explaining what isps should do and that
Claranet have not acted in a fair way in this matter. It is very relevant
to the matter in hand and certainly explains a lot into how reports should
be dealt with.


  #8  
Old February 26th 05, 12:50 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Muxton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 143
Default Clara: immed. disconnect on P2P complaint !!

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 00:46:03 -0000, "Beck"
wrote:


"Muxton" wrote in message
.. .

Hang on, Phil, what, in any of the posts that have gone before, gives
you the idea that this relates to downloading of copyright protected
film of any sort? The OP openly admitted that it was some old
software. Okay, he maybe naively assumed that old means out of
copyright, and probably wrongly so, but it doesn't appear to be TV or
movie material.

And as far as Zen's AUP goes, which you seem to be stating above,
remember that the OP ain't subscribed to your service so your AUP
means jack ****e to him. The one he /used/ to subscribe to does, or
did.

If he migrates to you (i.e. Zen), OTOH, in the light of his
experiences with his previous provider, he may wish to take notice of
the info you've given here


Phil's post was spot on. He was explaining what isps should do and that
Claranet have not acted in a fair way in this matter. It is very relevant
to the matter in hand and certainly explains a lot into how reports should
be dealt with.


As you say, *should* be. However, the AUP that the OP signed up to
was how it *is*.

I'm not arguing that the action was fair, IMO it wasn't, I'm pointing
out that the OP was bound by the rules of the provider that he signed
up to. Caveat emptor.

Always read the small print. And don't complain when it bites you.
That's life, and **** happens.

Jake

  #10  
Old February 26th 05, 11:22 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Spin Dryer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 291
Default Clara: immed. disconnect on P2P complaint !!

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:25:31 +0000 (UTC), ] said
:-


Muxton wrote

Hang on, Phil, what, in any of the posts that have gone before, gives
you the idea that this relates to downloading of copyright protected
film of any sort? The OP openly admitted that it was some old
software. Okay, he maybe naively assumed that old means out of
copyright, and probably wrongly so, but it doesn't appear to be TV or
movie material.


That's correct, it was ~ 5 years old. Very soon, the full version will
be on the PCW cover CD I agree it's probably copyright, even so.


So - you now admit to actually having copyrighted software on your PC
and sharing it for all to download. This is fully against your AUP and
T&C.

It is completely irrelevant how old the software is, it's not yours to
give away "for free" or even allow it to be downloaded.



 




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