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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

Surge Protection RJ11



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 24th 05, 09:10 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Kris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 22
Default Surge Protection RJ11

Close lightning destroyed the cordless phone at the weekend, now looking
to get some phone line surge protection. The adsl router survived.

One of the Belkin range seems ok for mains / BT telephone sockets
but I can't find anything for the RJ 11 lead between the BT ADSL
faceplate and the router.

... Or perhaps the ADSL part of the faceplate and / or the router have inbuilt
protection and no need to worry ?

Chris



  #2  
Old May 24th 05, 10:20 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
w_tom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Surge Protection RJ11

First you are assuming electricity works like a wave
crashing on the beach. Does the transient enter on phone
line, destroy phone, then stop? Of course not. A transient
first flows equally through everything in a path from the
cloud to ground. Only when that current increases
sufficiently, does something in that path (ie. the phone)
fail.

Second, all appliances have internal protection. Protection
that can be overwhelmed if the destructive transient is not
earthed BEFORE it can enter the building.

To have a destructive transient, the transistorized
appliance must have two paths - an incoming and an outgoing
path. Portable phone base stations are particularly
vulnerable; two paths being AC electric and phone line. So
which line did the transient enter on? You have assumed it
was the telephone line. Why?

Furthermore, do you expect to stop what 3 kilometers of sky
could not? That is what ineffective plug-in protector
manufacturers hope you will assume. However in N America,
every incoming phone line already has a 'whole house'
protector installed free by the telco. Does it stop the
transient? Of course not. Effective protection does what Ben
Franklin demonstrated in 1752. He did not stop lightning. He
shunted (diverted) lightning to earth. You must do same.

A protector is not protection. An effective protector does
same thing as an earthing wire. An effective protector
connects the destructive transient to protection. The
protector is not protection. Earth ground is protection. The
protector is simply a connection from that utility wire to
protection. This is what plug-in protectors hope you never
learn.

You don't know if the transient entered on AC electric to
find earth ground via phone line; or visa versa. But we know
this. First, a plug-in protector hopes you will assume a
protector will stop what 3 kilometers of sky could not.
Forget the nonsense promoted by Belkin; who avoids all
discussion about earth ground. The concepts of RJ-11
protection were discussed extensively "RJ-11 line protection?"
on 30 Dec 2003 through 12 Jan 2004 in pdx.computing at:
http://tinyurl.com/2hl53

In the UK, providers of effective protectors for AC electric
a
http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/furse06.htm
http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/pdf/ma...lies/m2_m4.pdf

For phone lines:

http://www.one.co.uk/catalogue/teleb...otect/22PX.HTM
http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/furse11.htm
http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/furse08.htm

Notice what every effective protector features: a dedicated
wire for a 'less than 3 meter' connection to single point
earth ground. An effective protector only connector the
transient to protection.

How might your phone have been damaged? This figure from
the National Institute of Standards and Technology
demonstrates how bad earthing caused fax machine damage:
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html

Again, the effective protector makes a 'less than 3 meter'
dedicated connection to earth ground. Same principle is why
BT, connected to overhead wires everywhere in town, need not
shutdown during any thunderstorm. You are strongly
encouraged to review that previous discussion entitled "RJ-11
line protection?". Earth ground (and not the protector) is
protection. No protector is going to stop, block, filter, or
absorb the transient that might damage that portable phone
base station. Therefore ineffective protectors avoid all
discussion about earthing - to make the sale.

The protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Kris wrote:
Close lightning destroyed the cordless phone at the weekend, now
looking to get some phone line surge protection. The adsl router
survived.

One of the Belkin range seems ok for mains / BT telephone sockets
but I can't find anything for the RJ 11 lead between the BT ADSL
faceplate and the router.

.. Or perhaps the ADSL part of the faceplate and / or the router
have inbuilt protection and no need to worry ?

Chris

  #3  
Old May 24th 05, 11:03 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Kris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 22
Default Surge Protection RJ11


The protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


Thanks for the techie stuff, conclusion ... I'll not bother with
anything, I could buy 2 adsl routers for the price of the pro
protectors.

Amazing how Belkin can claim to pay out for surge damaged equipment
if their products don't work. perhaps I'll read the small print.

Chris


  #4  
Old May 24th 05, 11:41 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
w_tom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Surge Protection RJ11

Possible that trivial transient was just enough to damage
the phone but not enough to overwhelm ADSL internal
protection. Or the phone was protecting ADSL router by
earthing a transient. No phone and the next transient may
find a destructive path via that ADSL router. Its called a
'canary in the coalmine'. If lightning exists, then spend
less money (per protected appliance) for recommended protector
or something equivalent. The protector sold by Belkin is
typically tens of times more money per protected appliance and
does not provide what every appliance requires.

All appliances have internal protection. Protection that
assumes you have earthed the incoming transient. Earthing
that transient so that internal protection is not
overwhelmed. Nothing techie about it since I did not even
post numbers. It's really quite simple. Effective protection
for about 1 per protected appliance.

What protects your dishwasher? RCDs. Your clock radio.
Dimmer switches. Smoke detector. Furnace and central air
controls. Effective protector costs about 1 per protected
appliance. 'Whole house' protectors being so inexpensive that
N American phone companies install them for free. Without it,
next time the ADSL router may not have a portable phone to
protect it - or computers adjacent to the ADSL router may not
be so lucky.

What is one potentially outgoing and destructive path from
an ADSL router? Through household computers. That damaged
portable phone may be a 'canary in a coalmine'. Effective
protection from direct lightning strikes being so inexpensive.

What is not mentioned by Belkin is so damning. Which type
of transient does it protect from? An effective protector
provides protection from all types of transients. A plug-in
protector does not claim protection from the typically
destructive type of transient, and therefore avoids all
discussion about earth ground.

How to identify an ineffective protector. 1) Has no
dedicated connection to earth ground. 2) Manufacturer avoids
all discussion about earthing. Again, a protector is only as
effective as its earth ground.

Meanwhile, potentially destructive transients occur maybe
once every eight years. A number that varies significantly
based upon geology and other factors beyond the scope of this
discussion. Are you in a high transient location, or is that
frequency of transients so low that another may not occur for
over 10 years? Just another consideration.

Kris wrote:
Thanks for the techie stuff, conclusion ... I'll not bother with
anything, I could buy 2 adsl routers for the price of the pro
protectors.

Amazing how Belkin can claim to pay out for surge damaged equipment
if their products don't work. perhaps I'll read the small print.

Chris

  #5  
Old May 25th 05, 12:12 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Muxton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 143
Default Surge Protection RJ11

On Tue, 24 May 2005 17:41:51 -0400, w_tom wrote:

snip waffle

http://tinyurl.com/7e9us

You talk endlessly on newsgroups about power related stuff, but you
haven't worked out how to bottom post yet.

Jake

  #6  
Old May 25th 05, 12:19 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Kris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 22
Default Surge Protection RJ11

w_tom wrote:
Possible that trivial transient was just enough to damage
the phone but not enough to overwhelm ADSL internal
protection. Or the phone was protecting ADSL router by
earthing a transient. No phone and the next transient may
find a destructive path via that ADSL router. Its called a
'canary in the coalmine'. If lightning exists, then spend
less money (per protected appliance) for recommended protector
or something equivalent. The protector sold by Belkin is
typically tens of times more money per protected appliance and
does not provide what every appliance requires.

All appliances have internal protection. Protection that
assumes you have earthed the incoming transient. Earthing
that transient so that internal protection is not
overwhelmed. Nothing techie about it since I did not even
post numbers. It's really quite simple. Effective protection
for about 1 per protected appliance.

What protects your dishwasher? RCDs. Your clock radio.
Dimmer switches. Smoke detector. Furnace and central air
controls. Effective protector costs about 1 per protected
appliance. 'Whole house' protectors being so inexpensive that
N American phone companies install them for free. Without it,
next time the ADSL router may not have a portable phone to
protect it - or computers adjacent to the ADSL router may not
be so lucky.

What is one potentially outgoing and destructive path from
an ADSL router? Through household computers. That damaged
portable phone may be a 'canary in a coalmine'. Effective
protection from direct lightning strikes being so inexpensive.

What is not mentioned by Belkin is so damning. Which type
of transient does it protect from? An effective protector
provides protection from all types of transients. A plug-in
protector does not claim protection from the typically
destructive type of transient, and therefore avoids all
discussion about earth ground.

How to identify an ineffective protector. 1) Has no
dedicated connection to earth ground. 2) Manufacturer avoids
all discussion about earthing. Again, a protector is only as
effective as its earth ground.

Meanwhile, potentially destructive transients occur maybe
once every eight years. A number that varies significantly
based upon geology and other factors beyond the scope of this
discussion. Are you in a high transient location, or is that
frequency of transients so low that another may not occur for
over 10 years? Just another consideration.


Thanks w_tom, I'm now losing the will to live ... do you continually
search Usenet for 'surge protection' ? get a life mate ... and top posting
irritates many users.





  #7  
Old May 25th 05, 09:31 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Peter James
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Surge Protection RJ11


"w_tom" wrote in message
...
Possible that trivial transient was just enough to damage
big snip


Hurry up and find your tweezers and magnifying glass and get off this ng
ffs.


  #8  
Old May 25th 05, 11:07 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
w_tom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Surge Protection RJ11

If you did not want the answer, then why did you ask the
question?

Kris wrote:
Thanks w_tom, I'm now losing the will to live ... do you continually
search Usenet for 'surge protection' ? get a life mate ... and top
posting irritates many users.

  #9  
Old May 26th 05, 10:43 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Harry
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 26
Default Surge Protection RJ11

On Wed, 25 May 2005 17:07:05 -0400, w_tom wrote:

If you did not want the answer, then why did you ask the
question?

Kris wrote:
Thanks w_tom, I'm now losing the will to live ... do you continually
search Usenet for 'surge protection' ? get a life mate ... and top
posting irritates many users.

I think the OP just wanted a straight answer.

Does the facepalce have inbuilt protection?
Do I need to get protection?
If I do, what do I need to buy?

I am sure the OP did not want a thesis on the electical ******** you
gave.

A simple yes/no/"this is what you need" would have sufficed.


  #10  
Old May 27th 05, 01:23 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
John Steele
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 62
Default Surge Protection RJ11


"Kris" wrote in message
...
Close lightning destroyed the cordless phone at the weekend, now looking
to get some phone line surge protection. The adsl router survived.

One of the Belkin range seems ok for mains / BT telephone sockets
but I can't find anything for the RJ 11 lead between the BT ADSL
faceplate and the router.

.. Or perhaps the ADSL part of the faceplate and / or the router have
inbuilt
protection and no need to worry ?


If you are able to use a surge protector between the incoming BT line and
your ADLS filter e.g. at the master socket then one surge protector will
provide protection for both telephone and ADSL equipment. This is by far the
best place to position it. You don't need one explicitly for the RJ11 ADSL
connection. There are other surges that come through the mains and the
Belkin devices also filter these out as well.

I should ignore much of the information you have been given in another part
of this thread. There will be no effective protection against a direct
lightening strike but electrical storms give rise to voltage surges in
telephone wires even if the strike is some considerable distance away from
any of the telephone wiring between yourself and the exchange. The amount of
energy involved is almost impossible to comprehend. The voltage transients
created can be hundreds of thousands of volts (or more) close to a strike
and no affordable protection will survive that. The surge dissipates with
distance but can still cause transients that damage equipment several miles
from the actual strike.

The protection devices from Belkin however come with a "Connected Equipment
Warranty" so that even if your equipment is damaged at least it will be
replaced - has anyone tried to claim by the way? My Mastercube provides
warranty protection for 35,000 of connected equipment which is more than
enough for normal domestic use. Professional surge protectors may give more
protection but I am comfortable with the Belkin unit together with the
warranty. By the way it did not affect my ADSL performance when I inserted
the surge protector!

John Steele
www.soroban.co.uk


 




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