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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

So frustrating .. sigh



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 11th 05, 11:47 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
T i m
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 294
Default So frustrating .. sigh

Hi All,

sigh the following isn't strictly bb but you guys here know yer
stuff so sorry if it's a bit ot (being a wireless problem)... ;-(

So, I have a network at home, bb cable router and run a wireless ap
for the odd laptop etc etc.

Everything connects, everything works, all as should be.

A mate wanting to do similar buys a WiFi ADSL router and muggins get's
called round to 'help him' yeah right set it up.

Ok, so we have the BT ADSL up pretty quickly (after we bypass the
Belkin mains surge protector / line filter that was killing the signal
and partly why he couldn't get it connected himself) and his hard
wired PC and WiFi laptop. Both machines on the net, Windows updates
etc etc..

Then he says 'can I print from the laptop to the PC printer" ..

Yes I reply .. no problems ..... ;-(

Well some hours later and using my laptop as a third machine for tests
I gave up.

You could sometimes see the shares then they would go .. or be there
but very slow etc etc .. and I finally left him with the laptop hard
wired with my spare ethernet cable and PCMCIA ethernet card (now
everything sees everything 100%).

The shop he bought the first router (an Edimax) has kindly given him a
Netgear DG834G to 'try out' and I decided to bring it home and check
it out for him.

Still similar problems of some machines seeing other and other
machines not seeing something else (when all 3 can access the router
diag port .. I can't test internet access as I don't have ADSL). The
same machines with the same Wifi cards connecting to *my* AP, all see
each other as good as gold. In all cases I get good DHCP and if I
don't get the WEP / WPA keys right I get nowhere (so that must be ok)?

Now I'm known for having the patience of a saint but I had to forget
it all last night and have a game of Pariah on the net to vent my
frustrations!

Could it be that most of my gear is 802.11b and this new router is b/g
(I did set the router to b only but with no improvements)?

I've checked with Netstumbler and there's nothing out there on the
different chans I have tried so far (I do see other nets though). Even
tried with / without Zero Net Config service, direct connects (rather
than browsing) pings etc etc, no black and white outcome ... ;-(


All the best ...

Frustrated of London

  #2  
Old July 11th 05, 08:56 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Happy Hunter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default So frustrating .. sigh


"T i m" wrote in message
...
Hi All,

Ok, so we have the BT ADSL up pretty quickly (after we bypass the
Belkin mains surge protector / line filter that was killing the signal
and partly why he couldn't get it connected himself) and his hard
wired PC and WiFi laptop. Both machines on the net, Windows updates
etc etc..

Then he says 'can I print from the laptop to the PC printer" ..

Yes I reply .. no problems ..... ;-(

Well some hours later and using my laptop as a third machine for tests
I gave up.

Having seen from another post that you've been a Netware instructor, I doubt
I can add anything that you've not tried.

But (hey what the heck, I'll give it a try) something sort of similar
happened to me a while ago. I was setting up a PC as a "server" not a real
one, just a peer-to-peer job. On completing this, some of my machines
couldn't see each other and some couldn't see the server .. all via
Microsoft network browser. I decided that the Master Browser had probably
got screwed up somewhere and decided to leave it alone. Next day, twas all
back to normal again.

So, I could have been right, and the Master Browser sorted itself out
overnight, could have been co-incidence. As it happens the "server" is now
on 24x7, so probably always is the "master browser", haven't seen the
problem since. All XP operating system.

Can you connect to the shares via a DOS prompt or explorer "map drive"
(using either netbios/netbeui names or ip address) ?

MTU Size ? Might be something worth checking (although grasping at straws).

I do vaguely recall having problems on my work laptop not connecting to
shared resources on wired machines, this was a few month ago though. I do
remember thinking that when I'd moved it to a wired connection everything
was OK. mmmm .. can't remember which AP I was using at the time they are all
Netgear anyway.

re-reading your post a few times would still make me think Master browser at
this point. When you connected the machines to your AP, was your normal PCs
switched on (ie the likely master browser was there and available) ? Tried
your AP with just your friends machines, still OK ?


  #3  
Old July 11th 05, 10:43 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
T i m
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 294
Default So frustrating .. sigh

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:56:00 +0100, "Happy Hunter"
wrote:


Well some hours later and using my laptop as a third machine for tests
I gave up.

Having seen from another post that you've been a Netware instructor, I doubt
I can add anything that you've not tried.


That was a while ago and this was a plea for help ;-)

But (hey what the heck, I'll give it a try) something sort of similar
happened to me a while ago.


phew thanks ;-)

I was setting up a PC as a "server" not a real
one, just a peer-to-peer job. On completing this, some of my machines
couldn't see each other and some couldn't see the server .. all via
Microsoft network browser.


pah, spit Give me RIP/SAP anyday (ok it has a high overhead but you
always knew where you were!) ;-)

I decided that the Master Browser had probably
got screwed up somewhere and decided to leave it alone. Next day, twas all
back to normal again.


My neighbour (a real PC / Network guru) tells me the M/soft 'browse
concept' (my words) can sometimes take a 'very long time' ;-)

So, I could have been right, and the Master Browser sorted itself out
overnight, could have been co-incidence. As it happens the "server" is now
on 24x7, so probably always is the "master browser", haven't seen the
problem since. All XP operating system.


Understood. I have learnt to give this stuff time .. often moreso when
it's wireless, but with these 'funnies' no reboot's or waiting seemed
to make any difference .. ;-(


Can you connect to the shares via a DOS prompt or explorer "map drive"
(using either netbios/netbeui names or ip address) ?


To be honest I didn't try last night .. I was just working on the
basis that this was going to have to work at my mates 'as-was' so I
shouldn't have to need to do anything 'special' to make it work as
expected? I worked on the basis that if the wireless machines found
the AP, connected and authenticated (and could connect to the router
diag port) then that should be sufficient? Funnily I often install
NetBios / Beui / whatever as it *seems* to make browsing more
predictable. Also I was balancing laptops on my knee and none of it
was condusive to 'propper' tests ;-(

MTU Size ? Might be something worth checking (although grasping at straws).


That should have been 'default' (for both the router and PC) but worth
a check (dangerous to assume eh) ;-)

I do vaguely recall having problems on my work laptop not connecting to
shared resources on wired machines, this was a few month ago though. I do
remember thinking that when I'd moved it to a wired connection everything
was OK. mmmm .. can't remember which AP I was using at the time they are all
Netgear anyway.


And that's the rub .. plug all this together using wires and it all
behaves as expected with no changes?

re-reading your post a few times would still make me think Master browser at
this point. When you connected the machines to your AP, was your normal PCs
switched on (ie the likely master browser was there and available) ? Tried
your AP with just your friends machines, still OK ?


I would start with my desktop via a wired connection to the router and
configure the minimum. I would then connect the laptops wirelessly and
check they could connect to the net (can't do that in this case .. I
don't have my own DSLAM / radius servers / whatever) ;-)

I would then normally 'browse' the workgroup and check all the shares.

My desktop kept seeing my wifes PC that was no longer connected.

One laptop could see the desktop and the other couldn't

One laptop could see the other laptop ..

Does sound like browsing doesn't it?

I'll try to get everything set up on a desk and do some more thorough
(logged) tests .. or just get my mate to run some cables ;-)

All the best and thanks very much for your time ..

T i m
  #4  
Old July 12th 05, 07:58 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Happy Hunter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default So frustrating .. sigh


"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:56:00 +0100, "Happy Hunter"
wrote:

I decided that the Master Browser had probably
got screwed up somewhere and decided to leave it alone. Next day, twas
all
back to normal again.


My neighbour (a real PC / Network guru) tells me the M/soft 'browse
concept' (my words) can sometimes take a 'very long time' ;-)


I'd say that's probably normal ! Would be especially normal if different
machines are the last one or first one on .. ie the Master browser function
switches machine. Of course, wireless is definately slower than wired.


Can you connect to the shares via a DOS prompt or explorer "map drive"
(using either netbios/netbeui names or ip address) ?


To be honest I didn't try last night .. I was just working on the
basis that this was going to have to work at my mates 'as-was' so I
shouldn't have to need to do anything 'special' to make it work as
expected? I worked on the basis that if the wireless machines found
the AP, connected and authenticated (and could connect to the router
diag port) then that should be sufficient?


In your case yes. If you've only got the one AP and it's the hub as well
(and the DHCP server), then yes I'd agree, if connected to AP and can
connect to router diag port (via something like I.E and so proving the
network connectivity) then all should be OK. Pinging each machine from a dos
prompt will prove that they are seeing each other at a basic network
connectivity level.

Had lot's of funnies on my nephews PC connecting wirelessly, but this was
down to a combination of problems. It would connect wirelessly to it's
nearest AP, but then got stuck "aquiring network address", ie it didn't get
it's IP address from the DHCP server which was a separate device. It then
defaulted to the microsoft default "private network address" 169.x.x.x.
Also had lots of "not connecting problems".

Basically summed up as ... PC on the limit of the receiving of the wireless
signal (so intermittent results) AND me using a netgear cable router as an
AP (from the days when I had cable broadband .. sigh ... on ISDN at the
moment awaiting adsl). The netgear cable router was p1ssed at being used as
an AP (must have been insulted) and every so often (well, err quite often)
refused to forward DHCP requests onto the DHCP server (which is my ISDN
router), so connected ok to the AP, but no IP address. Fixed by moving one
of my APs closer to my nephews PC and swapping in a "proper" AP and moving
the netgear cable router to another point on the network (so it now irrates
my sisters laptop but it's at a point in the house where it can be switched
on and off easily, when ADSL arrives, I'll retire this old cable router.)

When I was a nipper, we only had the dos prompt. Can be useful to bypass the
microsoft browsing function and the good old dos prompt sometimes gives
better error messages or better clues as to what is going wrong.

My desktop kept seeing my wifes PC that was no longer connected.


That's normal I'd say and usually followed by "crap didn't mean to click
that PC" .. and it then takes ages to come back and say "can't find it".

Does sound like browsing doesn't it?


Yes. Might be worth a browse around the MS Knowledge base to see if anything
pops up. I'd did skip by something saying how to stop a specific machine
becoming the master browser when you've got mixed operating systems (I think
win 98x was a problem for some reason or other).

I've got a mix or wired/wireless on my network and it's ok, but being
honest, my machines "connect at logon" to any shared resources they need to
access, so I don't that often use the "browsing" function as it's so slow
and wrong half the time.


I'll try to get everything set up on a desk and do some more thorough
(logged) tests .. or just get my mate to run some cables ;-)


good luck !

All the best and thanks very much for your time ..

T i m



  #5  
Old July 13th 05, 06:46 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
T i m
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 294
Default So frustrating .. sigh

On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:58:57 +0100, "Happy Hunter"
wrote:

I worked on the basis that if the wireless machines found
the AP, connected and authenticated (and could connect to the router
diag port) then that should be sufficient?


In your case yes. If you've only got the one AP and it's the hub as well
(and the DHCP server), then yes I'd agree, if connected to AP and can
connect to router diag port (via something like I.E and so proving the
network connectivity) then all should be OK.


Well, *my* std system is (currently) Q-Tec (g) WiFi cable router
(giving DHCP etc) but actually getting WiFi access via a Netgear AP
(b). When testing my mates Netgear WiFi router (g) I just disconnected
from my network and re-connected to his (same machines, workgroup, I/P
- DHCP scope etc etc).

Pinging each machine from a dos
prompt will prove that they are seeing each other at a basic network
connectivity level.


I did try the "run, \\machinename " command and that normally give
the connection a poke if one is needed but apart from another
frustrating wait, nothing ;-(

Had lot's of funnies on my nephews PC connecting wirelessly, but this was
down to a combination of problems. It would connect wirelessly to it's
nearest AP, but then got stuck "aquiring network address", ie it didn't get
it's IP address from the DHCP server which was a separate device.


On my Netgear AP you can set if it or another device handles the DHCP
... (it can also be a DHCP client but I have it set to 'static' outside
my normal DHCP scope.

It then
defaulted to the microsoft default "private network address" 169.x.x.x.
Also had lots of "not connecting problems".


I think I have seen that when the encryptionn isn't correct (proven by
turning it off for a while)? It makes the wireless connection but
can't pass data?

Basically summed up as ... PC on the limit of the receiving of the wireless
signal (so intermittent results) AND me using a netgear cable router as an
AP (from the days when I had cable broadband .. sigh ... on ISDN at the
moment awaiting adsl). The netgear cable router was p1ssed at being used as
an AP (must have been insulted) and every so often (well, err quite often)
refused to forward DHCP requests onto the DHCP server (which is my ISDN
router), so connected ok to the AP, but no IP address. Fixed by moving one
of my APs closer to my nephews PC and swapping in a "proper" AP and moving
the netgear cable router to another point on the network (so it now irrates
my sisters laptop but it's at a point in the house where it can be switched
on and off easily, when ADSL arrives, I'll retire this old cable router.)


I has a similat 'funny' with my little D-Link cable router that fist
started showing 'problems' when I got a new Acer laptop. Long story
short it seemed to have issues re DHCP and some of the newer NIC's /
chipsets. If my neighbour turned on his DHCP server (Linux box /
Smoothwall) it would pickup i/p stuff every time? When the Acer got
DHCP from his server it was always the *upper* address from the scope
rather than the lower / first available (and that was probably what
was throwing the Dlink box?

When I was a nipper, we only had the dos prompt.


(me too) ;-)

Can be useful to bypass the
microsoft browsing function and the good old dos prompt sometimes gives
better error messages or better clues as to what is going wrong.


Indeed ;-)

My desktop kept seeing my wifes PC that was no longer connected.


That's normal I'd say and usually followed by "crap didn't mean to click
that PC" .. and it then takes ages to come back and say "can't find it".


lol ... how true! Click, click, click DOH! egg timer
.................

Does sound like browsing doesn't it?


Yes. Might be worth a browse around the MS Knowledge base to see if anything
pops up. I'd did skip by something saying how to stop a specific machine
becoming the master browser when you've got mixed operating systems (I think
win 98x was a problem for some reason or other).


I'm tempted to just try some 802.11g units for the PC's and there may
be a wireless isssue as well?

I've got a mix or wired/wireless on my network and it's ok, but being
honest, my machines "connect at logon" to any shared resources they need to
access, so I don't that often use the "browsing" function as it's so slow
and wrong half the time.


I have a regular remote (wireless) client and that has no probs at
all, once I had found a good combination of device / ant / spec etc
etc.


I'll try to get everything set up on a desk and do some more thorough
(logged) tests .. or just get my mate to run some cables ;-)


good luck !


I think 'luck' is a good word where wireless ( being 'unbound media')
is involved! ;-(

All the best ..

T i m

 




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