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uk.telecom.voip (UK VOIP) (uk.telecom.voip) Discussion of topics relevant to packet based voice technologies including Voice over IP (VoIP), Fax over IP (FoIP), Voice over Frame Relay (VoFR), Voice over Broadband (VoB) and Voice on the Net (VoN) as well as service providers, hardware and software for use with these technologies. Advertising is not allowed.

Safety of registering with 18866



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 25th 05, 03:30 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Joe Harrison
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 84
Default Safety of registering with 18866

I like the rates for calling UK mobiles via www.18866.com so am tempted to
sign up.

Trouble is they bill you retrospectively, it's not like you buy £x.xx of
credit which you then use up. An unlimited number of calls can mount up and
you're responsible.

Given that sending VOIP login parameters doesn't seem to be encrypted in any
way is this a recipe for suddenly / too late discovering someone has
"borrowed" your credentials and run up a huge bill which you then get stuck
with paying?

Anyone got any suggestions for any other provider with particularly good
rates to call UK mobiles?

Joe


  #2  
Old June 25th 05, 03:59 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Joe Harrison
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 84
Default Safety of registering with 18866


wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:30:07 GMT, "Joe Harrison"
wrote:

I like the rates for calling UK mobiles via www.18866.com so am tempted

to
sign up.

Trouble is they bill you retrospectively, it's not like you buy £x.xx of
credit which you then use up. An unlimited number of calls can mount up

and
you're responsible.

I have been with 18866 since they first came to this country and I
haven't paid them ten pounds in call charges up to now and they have
never tried to take more cash than they should from my card .
An unlimited number of calls can mount up and
you're responsible

It would take quite a time to mount up to anything substantial at 2 p
a call .


I don't think I explained this very well. I am not suggesting that 18866
would over-bill me.

But what prevents someone from sniffing my unencrypted SIP credentials
(password etc.) and then using my account? Calls can be substantially more
than 2p, for example Pakistan 15p. I could get a hell of a bill.

Joe


  #3  
Old June 25th 05, 05:45 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Joe Harrison
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 84
Default Safety of registering with 18866


wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:59:38 GMT, "Joe Harrison"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:30:07 GMT, "Joe Harrison"
wrote:

I like the rates for calling UK mobiles via www.18866.com so am

tempted
to
sign up.

Trouble is they bill you retrospectively, it's not like you buy £x.xx

of
credit which you then use up. An unlimited number of calls can mount

up
and
you're responsible.
I have been with 18866 since they first came to this country and I
haven't paid them ten pounds in call charges up to now and they have
never tried to take more cash than they should from my card .
An unlimited number of calls can mount up and
you're responsible
It would take quite a time to mount up to anything substantial at 2 p
a call .


I don't think I explained this very well. I am not suggesting that 18866
would over-bill me.

But what prevents someone from sniffing my unencrypted SIP credentials
(password etc.) and then using my account? Calls can be substantially

more
than 2p, for example Pakistan 15p. I could get a hell of a bill.

I wasn't thinking that Joe I was thinking along the lines of you
didn't want to be faced with a large bill that you couldn't pay. using
1866 for other than geographic UK calls is a different kettle of fish
all togather .


OK well that brings us back to my actual question - does anyone know what
the answer is?

Unless there is some factor I haven't considered then using 18866 with VOIP
is potentially a suicidally crazy thing to do. You are basically handing the
entire internet a free invitation to make thousands of calls charged on your
bank account.


  #4  
Old June 25th 05, 06:53 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
sandman112
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Safety of registering with 18866

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:45:31 GMT, "Joe Harrison"
wrote:


. You are basically handing the
entire internet a free invitation to make thousands of calls charged on
your
bank account.

I think you have lost me here Joe only you can make calls from your
account .


hes trying to say, whats to stop someone from 'stealing' (be that phishing
or whatever) your voip account details then ringing up loads of calls on
your account and your left to foot the bill ... and its a good point,
perhaps the only way to stop that would be for 18866 to indroduce the option
of top up style accounts like sipgate use.

really its much the same threat as someone stealing your net banking details
.... if you use common sence and keep your PC as secure as you can then you
should be ok i would think.

i remember i was a bit wary of signing up with 18866 at first but that was
because i was unsure they were a reputable company to deal with, there lack
of contact details is very off putting, and ive NEVER recieved anything at
all from there customer services dept, if they even have one


  #5  
Old June 25th 05, 06:56 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Phil Thompson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,720
Default Safety of registering with 18866

On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:45:31 GMT, "Joe Harrison"
wrote:

Unless there is some factor I haven't considered then using 18866 with VOIP
is potentially a suicidally crazy thing to do.


get a sense of proportion man, "suicidally crazy" ???

Phil
--
spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
Come on down !
  #6  
Old June 25th 05, 07:01 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Joe Harrison
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 84
Default Safety of registering with 18866


wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:45:31 GMT, "Joe Harrison"
wrote:


. You are basically handing the
entire internet a free invitation to make thousands of calls charged on

your
bank account.

I think you have lost me here Joe only you can make calls from your
account .


Whenever your VOIP device registers it sends your username and password
UNPROTECTED over a hostile internet which we all know contains many
varieties of criminals and phraud artists.

What do you think would happen if your 18866 password was grabbed then
resold on IRC? Of course it is obvious that by tomorrow you would be holding
the bag for thousands of expensive calls.

This is why I prefer to buy chunks of credit, the worst that can happen is
that someone steals the unexpired portion of credit and I would be out of
pocket by a maximum of (for example) 10.00. But when unlimited calls can be
direct-debited from your bank account it is a much different story.


  #7  
Old June 25th 05, 07:12 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Joe Harrison
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 84
Default Safety of registering with 18866


"Phil Thompson" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:45:31 GMT, "Joe Harrison"
wrote:

Unless there is some factor I haven't considered then using 18866 with

VOIP
is potentially a suicidally crazy thing to do.


get a sense of proportion man, "suicidally crazy" ???


Well not if you can easily stand the loss, say perhaps you are a business
with insurance or something.

But I am talking about ordinary users who suddenly find (for example) that
the Russian Mafia had stuck them with twenty thousand minutes at GBP 0.15
per, that would be a lot of money for me at least.

Joe


  #8  
Old June 25th 05, 08:01 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Ben Smithurst
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Safety of registering with 18866

Joe Harrison wrote:

Whenever your VOIP device registers it sends your username and password
UNPROTECTED over a hostile internet which we all know contains many
varieties of criminals and phraud artists.


assuming you are using SIP, this is wrong. SIP uses MD5 hashes and
other stuff in the authentication mechanism, the password is NOT
transmitted in the clear.

--
Ben Smithurst gradwell dot com Ltd
Systems Developer
http://bensmithurst.com/ http://www.gradwell.com/
  #9  
Old June 25th 05, 11:42 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Geoff Harrison
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Safety of registering with 18866

Joe Harrison wrote:
I like the rates for calling UK mobiles via www.18866.com so am tempted to
sign up.

Trouble is they bill you retrospectively, it's not like you buy £x.xx of
credit which you then use up. An unlimited number of calls can mount up and
you're responsible.

Given that sending VOIP login parameters doesn't seem to be encrypted in any
way is this a recipe for suddenly / too late discovering someone has
"borrowed" your credentials and run up a huge bill which you then get stuck
with paying?

Anyone got any suggestions for any other provider with particularly good
rates to call UK mobiles?

Joe



It is a very good point that has been addressed to a remarkable degree
from the beginning.

SIP uses Digest Authentication, Smime, TLS and IPSEC.

I would be more concerned over trojan horses on the PC. I would not be
concerned about authentication issues with sniffers.

The best option with any VOIP system is dedicated hardware.

Or, as Joe says, damage limitation.
  #10  
Old June 26th 05, 02:40 AM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Martin²
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 848
Default Safety of registering with 18866

Geoff Harrison:
The best option with any VOIP system is dedicated hardware.


Ehh ? That too has to send user ID and password, so security wise it's no
different.
But as already said, it's encrypted and there is lot more chance of someone
guessing at an username and password then intercepting traffic, isolating
the SIP login data and decrypting it.

To Joe:
Here is your solution: sign up with VoIPbuster.com, pay them ?1 and get free
calls to most of the 1st world and some Eastern Europe. Can't lose very much
!
Regards,
Martin



 




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