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uk.telecom.voip (UK VOIP) (uk.telecom.voip) Discussion of topics relevant to packet based voice technologies including Voice over IP (VoIP), Fax over IP (FoIP), Voice over Frame Relay (VoFR), Voice over Broadband (VoB) and Voice on the Net (VoN) as well as service providers, hardware and software for use with these technologies. Advertising is not allowed.

QoS with IP phone/ADSL router



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 27th 05, 10:36 AM posted to uk.telecom.voip
NewsAcc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16
Default QoS with IP phone/ADSL router

Hi all, after doing a few tests with web browsing/downloads whilst making a
call from a BudgeTone IP phone, I noticed some severe breakup of call on an
external IP phone. I suppose this is to be expected, so I started looking
into QoS. Looks like there are two places I can setup the QoS.

1. The BudgeTone IP phone which has the following QoS settings :
Layer 3 QoS: Diff-Serv or Precedence value - (48)
Layer 2 QoS: 802.1Q/VLAN Tag (0)
ND 802.1p priority value (0-7)

2. The ADSL router (USR Sureconnect) which has QoS rules which are in the
format :
Priority (Low/Med/High)
IP Precedence (0-7)
IP Type of Service (Minimize Delay, Maximize Throughput, Maximize
reliability)
Source IP (IP of the phone)

I decided (rightly or wrongly) that the correct thing to do was to add a
simple QoS rule to the router so that ANY UDP/TCP traffic originating from
the IP address of the phone would have a 'High Priority', and then 'Maximize
throughput' with a high 'IP Precedence'. This did absolutely nothing to the
voice breakup when web browsing from a PC on the same router. I then tried
every permutation at the router end with the same result. Am I on the right
track ?

I havent got a clue if I need to add anything to the BudgeTone phone's QoS
settings. There doesnt seem to be anything of any use on the net that I
could find either...

Thanks



  #2  
Old June 27th 05, 11:00 AM posted to uk.telecom.voip
▀°dincÁs
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default QoS with IP phone/ADSL router

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:36:47 GMT, NewsAcc said...
|Hi all, after doing a few tests with web browsing/downloads whilst making a
|call from a BudgeTone IP phone, I noticed some severe breakup of call on an
|external IP phone. I suppose this is to be expected, so I started looking
|into QoS. Looks like there are two places I can setup the QoS.
|
|1. The BudgeTone IP phone which has the following QoS settings :
| Layer 3 QoS: Diff-Serv or Precedence value - (48)
| Layer 2 QoS: 802.1Q/VLAN Tag (0)
| ND 802.1p priority value (0-7)
|
|2. The ADSL router (USR Sureconnect) which has QoS rules which are in the
|format :
| Priority (Low/Med/High)
| IP Precedence (0-7)
| IP Type of Service (Minimize Delay, Maximize Throughput, Maximize
|reliability)
| Source IP (IP of the phone)
|
|I decided (rightly or wrongly) that the correct thing to do was to add a
|simple QoS rule to the router so that ANY UDP/TCP traffic originating from
|the IP address of the phone would have a 'High Priority', and then 'Maximize
|throughput' with a high 'IP Precedence'. This did absolutely nothing to the
|voice breakup when web browsing from a PC on the same router. I then tried
|every permutation at the router end with the same result. Am I on the right
|track ?
|
|I havent got a clue if I need to add anything to the BudgeTone phone's QoS
|settings. There doesnt seem to be anything of any use on the net that I
|could find either...
|
|Thanks
|
|
|
|
Mind you, even if you prioritize the Voice traffic on your side, once it's
on the 'public' part of the 'net, the QoS is a mere illusion. Your packet
will go along others without any priority.
I assume isn't worth the effort.

HTH

--
▀odincus Ě The Y2K Druid
I'm watching you....
.oOo. (Ď_Ë) .oOo.
»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»
  #3  
Old June 27th 05, 06:15 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
▀°dincÁs
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default QoS with IP phone/ADSL router

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:36:15 +0100, Paul D.Smith said...
|The other poster is correct about the QoS being limited to your link however
|this is most likely to be where the bottleneck occurs.
For avid gamers, or clinical P2Pers the QoS maybe useful. I assume that for
a medium range current PC a network connection (ADSL/Cable) with a
bandwidth less that 1/10 of its nominal network card rate (100Mb) is not
relevant in terms of network or CPU load.
Even the oldest 10Mb hub/switch is not a bottleneck when is delivering data
from/to Internet.

|The latest ATA/router boxes are better at this sort of thing and you may
|want to invest in one of these long term. Basically, they put your phone
|"nearer" to the ADSL line that everything else and then throttle back
|everything else.
Right, but don't assume that a 256 Kb ADSL upload channel is performing
better if you enable QoS on the local side of the modem. The device is
already buffering a 10/100Mb connection output to push everything on a tiny
bandwidth... QoS is worth the effort on big local networks, or in a
dedicated cable connection. Everytime your packets are travelling through
the public Internet structure your packets, even if marked/wrapped with QoS
are treated as every other packet on the 'net.
|
|Someone may be able to give you more details on how to use QoS on your
|router. Do let us know if you get it to work as you won't be the last
|poster on this subject!
I may sound repetitive, but the fact that no one reported positive feedback
is a clue... :-)

--
▀odincus Ě The Y2K Druid
I'm watching you....
.oOo. (Ď_Ë) .oOo.
»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»
  #4  
Old June 27th 05, 06:49 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
NewsAcc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16
Default QoS with IP phone/ADSL router

So basically, its impossible (or not known) to speak to someone on an IP
phone whilst downloading/web browsing over a 512k ADSL link ? I find this
really difficult that there isnt an easy solution (without buying a ADSL
router with built in Voip/Qos).

Marcus


  #5  
Old June 28th 05, 02:09 AM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Martin▓
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 848
Default QoS with IP phone/ADSL router

I use softphones ( Xten Lite & Voipbuster ) over wireless link and suffered
long breaks when the other party could not hear me, presumably while my
partner in other part of the building was accessing the internet.
After switching to Draytek 2600VG (with two VoIP ports and QoS), I set up
the QoS as advised on Draytek forum with 70% priority to SIP traffic BOTH
ways and the problem has almost disappeared. Eventually I will have DECT
phone plugged into the router, but I am waiting for new Draytek firmware
which will allow me to use both Sipgate and Voipbuster.
Regards,
Martin


  #6  
Old June 28th 05, 08:58 AM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Paul D.Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 287
Default QoS with IP phone/ADSL router

Sorry but I don't understand your argument. Please see comments in-line
marked with PDS

Paul DS

"▀°dincÁs" wrote in message
er.co.uk...
On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:36:15 +0100, Paul D.Smith said...
|The other poster is correct about the QoS being limited to your link
however
|this is most likely to be where the bottleneck occurs.
For avid gamers, or clinical P2Pers the QoS maybe useful. I assume that for
a medium range current PC a network connection (ADSL/Cable) with a
bandwidth less that 1/10 of its nominal network card rate (100Mb) is not
relevant in terms of network or CPU load.
Even the oldest 10Mb hub/switch is not a bottleneck when is delivering data
from/to Internet.

PDS True but I don't see this has any affect.

|The latest ATA/router boxes are better at this sort of thing and you may
|want to invest in one of these long term. Basically, they put your phone
|"nearer" to the ADSL line that everything else and then throttle back
|everything else.
Right, but don't assume that a 256 Kb ADSL upload channel is performing
better if you enable QoS on the local side of the modem. The device is
already buffering a 10/100Mb connection output to push everything on a tiny
bandwidth... QoS is worth the effort on big local networks, or in a
dedicated cable connection. Everytime your packets are travelling through
the public Internet structure your packets, even if marked/wrapped with QoS
are treated as every other packet on the 'net.

PDS The whole point is that on the uplink, the VoIP sensitive router will
let the VoIP through and hold back the 10/100Mb connection output. Once all
this data reaches the ISP, they normally have more than sufficient bandwidth
to just "let rip".

PDS The main point is that the uplink is normally the bottleneck and you
have to allow VoIP traffic to get out at the expense of other uploads.
|
|Someone may be able to give you more details on how to use QoS on your
|router. Do let us know if you get it to work as you won't be the last
|poster on this subject!
I may sound repetitive, but the fact that no one reported positive feedback
is a clue... :-)

PDS Not true. Other posters to this thread are not the only ones who've
posted positive results from adding VoIP sensitive routers or combined
ATA/routers. People such as Netgear and Grandstream make these boxes for a
purpose - for example the Grandstream ATA-286 (just an ATA) has been
superceded by the ATA-484 (router/ATA combined) exactly because an ATA
trying to co-exist with other web traffic often looses out until some VoIP
sensitivity (i.e. QoS) is inserted.

--
▀odincus Ě The Y2K Druid
I'm watching you....
.oOo. (Ď_Ë) .oOo.
»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»


  #7  
Old June 30th 05, 09:30 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Philip
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default QoS with IP phone/ADSL router


"Paul D.Smith" wrote in message
et...
Sorry but I don't understand your argument. Please see comments in-line
marked with PDS

Paul DS

-snipped-

Hi

Unfortunately QoS seems to be a bit of black art, as an example, using QoS
on a SpeedTouch router caused SMTP traffic (had higher priority) to stop all
other traffic, see
http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthre...mber=19003 66.
Giving higher priority to some traffic that is maxing out the upload may
prevent any other traffic from being allowed through, or so it seems. The
most reliable method for VoIP seems to be a router with built in VoIP ports
that can sit the otherside of the NAT, as already mentioned.

Regards

Phil






  #8  
Old July 1st 05, 12:46 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Paul D.Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 287
Default QoS with IP phone/ADSL router

Unfortunately QoS seems to be a bit of black art, as an example, using QoS
on a SpeedTouch router caused SMTP traffic (had higher priority) to stop

all
other traffic, see

http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthre...mber=19003 66.
Giving higher priority to some traffic that is maxing out the upload may
prevent any other traffic from being allowed through, or so it seems. The
most reliable method for VoIP seems to be a router with built in VoIP

ports
that can sit the otherside of the NAT, as already mentioned.

Regards

Phil


The scenario is one of only two possible outcomes. You are attempting to
force more data down the "pipe" than it can handle. There are two ways to
police this:

1. Highest prioriy wins, the rest is dumped (your scenario).
2. Highet priority gets a bigger cut of the bandwidth than lower priorities
but everyone gets something.

The problem with option 2 is that the high priority data may not be able to
withstand _any_ loss (resulting from sneaking in a few lower priority
packets). So you can end up with a situation where the low prioriy stuff is
very slow (and people complain) _AND_ the high priority stuff has drop-out
(and people complain). You have pleased none of the people, any of the
time!

So option 1 is often marginally better, but long term the only solution is
to get a bigger "pipe" so that there is always room for the lower priority
data to get a look-in.

It's not as much a black art as a delicate balancing game. QoS is designed
to allow connections to temporarily cope with surges but cannot make a small
pipe into a large one. If you're always at the limit, upgrade - it's the
only solution.

Paul DS.


  #9  
Old July 4th 05, 07:28 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Joe Harrison
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 84
Default QoS with IP phone/ADSL router

For years I used to do NAT via an old PC with an ancient version of one of
those dedicated Linux router distros, as hardware router was out of my
reach.

Now that hardware NAT is so cheap I finally retired the PC and got a Linksys
WRT54G, with extended firmware to allow QoS. It really does work and the
difference is fantastic - previously a big download would stop me doing
simultaneous light HTTP traffic but now that's all gone. Not had VOIP long
enough to compare before/after but surely must be working for that too.


 




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