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uk.comp.home-networking (UK home networking) (uk.comp.home-networking) Discussion of all aspects of computer networking in the home, regardless of the platforms, software, topologies and protocols used. Examples of topics include recommendations for hardware or suppliers (e.g. NICs and cabling), protocols, servers, and specific network software. Advertising is not allowed.

Draytek Vigor support and forum grievances



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 29th 03, 01:55 AM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom.broadband
tHatDudeUK
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Posts: 89
Default Draytek Vigor support and forum grievances

To everyone interested in Draytek Vigor products.

I signed up to their UK support forum (which granted had an agreement which
said I had to own a Vigor router) and posted a pre-purchase question. Each
time, the post, along with the account that posted it was deleted within a
few hours with no explanation...

I looked at the rules for the board and noticed an e-mail address for any
questions about moderation of the forum. This is also the e-mail address for
pre-sale queries supposedly.

I sent an e-mail to this address kindly asking why my account and posts were
pulled with no explanation suggesting it wasn't good for their business and
if they had left the post there, and I got a response to my post, I would be
more likely to buy the router.

However, I got a nasty e-mail warning me off using the forum unless I had
explicit written permission. At the same time I e-mailed technical questions
about the router which were ignored even though they said in this e-mail
they would respond to pre-sale queries.

I replied to this e-mail saying that's hardly a business like way to respond
to a potential customer who could also direct more business towards them, in
terms of recommendations etc. I also pointed out that one of their
competitors, solwise, who also have forums but don't delete such questions
may win my deciding purchase at the end of the day.

I wasn't being abusive on their forum. They have nothing to lose and
everything to gain from allowing me to ask pre-purchase question. The
questions I asked were rather technical and I would have appreciated a
impatial response from an existing customer or maybe even a response from an
Admin or Moderator. I asked the questions in other forums with no
informative response, yet I e-mail them the questions and get a nasty
response telling me to stay away from the forums with the questions ignored.

I'm not very impressed and as for whether I will buy a Draytek router now I
doubt it....

Draytek routers may well be good but this kind of support leaves little to
be desired unfortunately.

Draytek, listen up here!

Gosh, now I've aired my grievances with Draytek UK. Do I feel better? Not
really!


  #2  
Old August 29th 03, 12:58 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom.broadband
Brian Gladman
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Posts: 2
Default Draytek Vigor support and forum grievances

Zapp Brannigan wrote:
tHatDudeUK enlightened the world by saying on 29/08/2003 01:55:

To everyone interested in Draytek Vigor products.

snip

Funny, the EXACT same thing happened to me yesterday, posted a
pre-sale question, it got deleted...

I am now wondering if they have "something to hide".

To everyone...

I will be getting a wireless router when my exchange gets enabled in a
couple of months.

WAS thinking of a Vigor 2600We, what other options are there. It
needs to do uPNP. Is the Drayteck still the way to go (I can get
them cheap through work, and works out about £130 all in for the
2600We)


I have a Vigor 2600we and I am very happy with it.

I use the forum and have also reported technical issues to the SEG team in
the UK and got a rapid and helpful response from them.

A minor but important (to me) technical issue that involved a change to the
provided software was fixed within 10 days of being reported . I think this
is pretty good compared with other companies to whom I have reported such
issues.

Brian Gladman


  #3  
Old August 29th 03, 01:24 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom.broadband
tHatDudeUK
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Posts: 89
Default Draytek Vigor support and forum grievances


"Zapp Brannigan" wrote in message
...
I am now wondering if they have "something to hide".


That's what I thought.

WAS thinking of a Vigor 2600We, what other options are there. It needs
to do uPNP. Is the Drayteck still the way to go (I can get them cheap
through work, and works out about £130 all in for the 2600We)


The draytek does UPNP AFAIK but be aware the Wireless end can only do
11mbps. This is only a problem if you're connecting more than 5 or so
wirelessly though or if you need to wirelessly transfer large files. Fastest
current standard is 54mbps and you could simply add a wireless access point
of this calibre to a non-wireless router.

How much would it cost you to get hold of the 2600 (ie. non-wireless.)? You
may be able to make some money from your advatageous position as the 2600
alone is just over £140 (cheapest place I can find, www.dslsource.co.uk )
;-)

When I get my student loan in september I'd be happy to give you £150 for
the wireless one and possibly £120-130 for the wired one if your source is
legitimate. (Even though this probably isn't enough of a profit margin to
make you interested in selling me one.)


  #4  
Old August 29th 03, 05:42 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom.broadband
Graham in Melton
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Posts: 167
Default Draytek Vigor support and forum grievances

On 29/8/03 1:55 am, in article ,
"tHatDudeUK" wrote:

I signed up to their UK support forum (which granted had an agreement which
said I had to own a Vigor router) and posted a pre-purchase question. Each
time, the post, along with the account that posted it was deleted within a
few hours with no explanation...


There is your answer ..... In your own words. You signed an agreement
knowing it was not true and therefore they are very much entitled to thro
posts off - they could of course take it further for misrepresentation but
they won't bother.

FWIW, my 2600X has been utterly super these past three months and the Forum
(for us real owners) was very helpful in solving a "how to...." bunch of
questions.

Next time you ant to buy a car, and you go into the service department and
bother them with sales type questions, don't be surprised when they turf you
out to a salesman.

  #6  
Old August 29th 03, 06:34 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom.broadband
tHatDudeUK
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Posts: 89
Default Draytek Vigor support and forum grievances


"Graham in Melton" wrote in message
...
Next time you ant to buy a car, and you go into the service department and
bother them with sales type questions, don't be surprised when they turf

you
out to a salesman.


This is quite differnt though. Here's a forum with loads of Draytek owners
who should be more than happy to reply to specific questions about the
product. I had no problem with the Solwise forum and as Zapp says it makes
you wonder if there's something to be hiding... My questions were technical
and weren't something silly like "is the Draytek Vigor 2600 a good router?"
as that wouldn't answer my questions.

Most people ignore agreements these days anyhow. If you spend £600 or
whatever on Microsoft Office, you have a little agreement saying blah de
blah de blah, if we take everything literally we can disagree with this
agreement and then return it to the retailer for a prompt refund (as you
don't agree with the EULA which you couldn't read until you put the CD in)
unfortunately most retailers will see refunding for software as a big no no
meaning you have no choice what you can and can't agree with. As for info
about cars I'd spend time looking in public forums and the like, websites
and asking questions. When I felt I was ready to buy I'd write up a list of
questions, if any, and ask the sales man. I'd rather ask a big pool of
people who own the product first though before considering getting it.

Ok I don't own a Draytek router but IMO it makes sense to allow a forum to
allow pre-sales queries. It's my preferred method of obtaining independent
clarification of issues... If I asked the people who sell them or make them
they'll possibly say yes does this, does that, makes your evening meal etc
whereas a end user will be more aimed at the real facts... Maybe I'm just
too used to public forums. When all you have to do to access the forum is
click agree then there's a place to ask loads of questions and hundreds of
Vigor users it just makes it too easy. If it said please insert the serial
number of your router I'd be stumped...

In terms of me buying a car neways insurance would cost me more than my
student bus pass for the year which gets me all across West Yorks on Bus or
Train so I know which I'll prefer to use for a while. These damn rich
students who own cars (or maybe it's their parents.) Lol, sorry for OT...


  #7  
Old August 29th 03, 07:56 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom.broadband
Graham in Melton
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Posts: 167
Default Draytek Vigor support and forum grievances

On 29/8/03 6:34 pm, in article ,
"tHatDudeUK" wrote:

This is quite different though. Here's a forum with loads of Draytek owners
who should be more than happy to reply to specific questions about the
product.


Yeah, but the users donıt pay directly for the upkeep of the forum and
Draytek do ...

Doesnıt avoid the fact that its THEIR FORUM for people who have spent money
with them.. They set the rules and he ignored them.

Doesnıt avoid the fact, he made a false statement to gain access,,, and so
suffers the consequences. He has no grounds to complain - its like nicking
something from a shop and then going back to complain about it !

This NG is precisely the right sort of place to discuss views, rather than
one clearly spelled out for Purchasers only.

I guess they have a view that they only want to help out people who have
actually spent money on them and not run a general purpose Forum for what
will undoubtedly end up as a general pro's and con's discussion.

Nobody forced him to agree to the terms of access and he knew he was lying.

Try that with the Taxman !



  #8  
Old August 29th 03, 07:58 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom.broadband
tHatDudeUK
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 89
Default Draytek Vigor support and forum grievances


"Zapp Brannigan" wrote in message
...
Sorry, not an option.. Could get into trouble...


Ah, no worries :-) I presume you're being offered them since they have VPN
functionality so you can dial in to work....


  #9  
Old August 29th 03, 09:01 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom.broadband
tHatDudeUK
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 89
Default Draytek Vigor support and forum grievances


"Graham in Melton" wrote in message
...
On 29/8/03 6:34 pm, in article

,
"tHatDudeUK" wrote:

This is quite different though. Here's a forum with loads of Draytek

owners
who should be more than happy to reply to specific questions about the
product.


Yeah, but the users donıt pay directly for the upkeep of the forum and
Draytek do ...


Upkeep of the forum. Make a routine whereby a genuine serial number is
required and you remove the need to employ those moderators that so easily
pull my posts and account within an hour of them being made. BIG money
saver.... I'm sure you agree to saving costs on the forum as you already
said.

This costs them nothing as they already have to have a web server and
internet connectivity. Only extra cost is a tiny bit of bandwidth (few
hundred megabytes a month at most) but I'm sure most companies would use a
service which doesn't charge based on bandwidth usage these days.... The
other extra cost is the moderators which could be done away with IMO as
described above. If the forum costs as much as you make out, if I buy a
Draytek router I'll petition them to remove the forum for reasons of
excessive cost and be laughed at....

Draytek also want to sell routers at the end of the day so giving a
potential customer the cold shoulder ain't going to do much for business.

What if you went into a corner shop and the owner told you to eff off as
soon as you came through the door? Perfectly acceptable thing to do, the
shop owner owns the property and can tell you to get lost off his property
as and when he likes. He can also call the police should you chose not to
agree with that fact. He can also refuse to sell you goods. Most corner
shops don't do this as they like to do business and make money at the end of
the day! Note how many shops sell lottery tickets, fags and booze to under
16's, this is because they want to make money! (I love that jackass bit
where he goes into a shop with a notice which says no shirt, no shoes, no
service. He walks in wearing a shirt, shoes and no trousers and the unhappy
japanese woman tries to usher him out. lol.)

Doesnıt avoid the fact that its THEIR FORUM for people who have spent

money
with them.. They set the rules and he ignored them.

Doesnıt avoid the fact, he made a false statement to gain access,,, and so
suffers the consequences. He has no grounds to complain - its like nicking
something from a shop and then going back to complain about it !


Nicking something from a shop? What consequences, possibly not buying their
router? I could run a forum off an ADSL connection and if it was popular
would expect the traffic to be minimal and the upkeep pretty cheap.

BTW I just clicked agree. I never made a direct contractual declaration. The
forum administrators obviously enforce the rules laid out for the forum
quite efficiently lucky for you who wants everyone else out. I didn't sign a
contract or directly type yes I agree I own a router etc. I'm not trying to
complain, simply unhappy.

This NG is precisely the right sort of place to discuss views, rather than
one clearly spelled out for Purchasers only.


Well I e-mailed them and they responded to my technical questions
pleasantly.

I asked in this NG for info about the router but I got the impression people
knew little. I went and searched Google groups and found nothing. Where's
the obvious place to ask I ask you? I thought little point in asking the
vendor (Dixons type induced fear, not worth asking them a single thing about
owt they sell as they know eff all but will talk drivel about it for half an
hour and try their best to get you to buy it.) I didn't want to waste the
time of Draytek by e-mailing them (for quite the same reason I don't reply
to every responded e-mail with 'thanks' because I know it means at the end
of the day they received 2 e-mails. It looks like I helped a forum moderator
keep their job.

I guess they have a view that they only want to help out people who have
actually spent money on them and not run a general purpose Forum for what
will undoubtedly end up as a general pro's and con's discussion.


Owners help owners by the looks of things. Only other thing there is eagle
eyed moderators ready to delete posts. The person named admin made very few
posts by the looks of things. My questions were not pro and con type
discussion thanks, they were technical questions about the router which to
my surprise were quite well answered by my second e-mail from them.

Nobody forced him to agree to the terms of access and he knew he was

lying.

I saw it as a forum. Not last will and testament. Ok I don't own a router
but I'd rather have a sorry we don't respond to pre-sale queries, you know,
something pleasant, or a big text notice saying OWNERS ONLY or NO PRE-SALE
QUERIES, E-MAIL YOUR QUERIES TO

I'm not the first person to be looking for info in that forum and
unfortunately for you and the Draytek moderator's I won't be the last.

http://www.solwiseforum.co.uk/forumd...?s=&forumid=40

look at the link above for an example of how I feel the Draytek forum should
be... Take special note of the title.

Try that with the Taxman !


Shutting out queries makes people less likely to buy and therefore the
company obtains less funding. If you're happy with a company which provides
updates and tech support for your product selling many less routers and
having less money to write that next firmware upgrade to fix a bug you're
having problems with I think you'd be a bit peeved...

See it from my perspective, I'm considering buying their router! Their
behaviour will affect my decision at the end of the day and whether I
recommend that router to other people which has a big knock on effect on
sales (if I buy, 20 others may buy based on recommendations and they'll go
on to recommend it) and hence future levels of product support. I wasn't
being in any way abusive in their forums, I didn't even receive a reply from
a moderator saying sorry we do not accept pre-sale queries here because....
please send queries here, which would have made me much more agreeable and
apologetic for using the forum. If they did that I wouldn't have tried
almost 4 times to get a response! I would have forgot about trying again the
first time. I had a good response from Solwise forums which would make me
tempted to buy their product than a unresposive post delete and account
pull.

Ok, you have your view that I'm not entitled to ask pre-sales queries in an
environment with lots of Draytek users who know how they perform in the real
world, which I personally think is weird but there you go.

Ever seen those Warez sites which say the below?- (now here's an agreement
to agree to)-

The creator of this page or the ISP(s) hosting any content on this
site take no responsibility for the way you use the information provided
on this site. These files and anything else on this site are here
for private purposes only and should not be downloaded or viewed
whatsoever!
If you are affiliated with any government, or ANTI-Piracy group, MPAA,
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cannot enter this web site, cannot access any of its files and you
cannot view any of the HTML files. All the objects on this site are
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other then bandwidth space. Do not enter whatsoever! If you enter
this site you are not agreeing to these terms and you are violating
code 431.322.12 of the Internet Privacy Act signed by Bill Clinton
in 1995 and that means that you cannot + threaten our ISP(s) or any
person(s) or company storing these files, cannot prosecute any person(s)
affiliated with this page which includes family, friends or individuals
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then you must leave now!
I would like to stress expressly that I did not have any influence
on the organization and contents of the linked pages. Therefore
I dissociate hereby expressly from all contents of all linked pages
on these homepage and do make myself not appropriated. This assertion
applies to all linked sites on my page!


  #10  
Old August 29th 03, 11:38 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom.broadband
Sunil Sood
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Posts: 1,590
Default Draytek Vigor support and forum grievances


"Graham in Melton" wrote in message
...
Who gives a sh*t ?

Not me, not them and tbh I can't be bothered to read 50 or so lines of
drivel trying to support someone who lies to gain access to something

they
are expressly told isn't fore them.


For someone who couldn't be bothered to read the previous post, couldn't
you have snipped it from your reply for the benefit of everyone else
reading this thread.

Regards
Sunil


 




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