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uk.comp.home-networking (UK home networking) (uk.comp.home-networking) Discussion of all aspects of computer networking in the home, regardless of the platforms, software, topologies and protocols used. Examples of topics include recommendations for hardware or suppliers (e.g. NICs and cabling), protocols, servers, and specific network software. Advertising is not allowed.

Hub or switch



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 3rd 04, 03:54 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking
Mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Hub or switch

I have just set-up a network with three PCs connected to an old server via a
hub.
The server has various external drives connected via firewire, USB2 and
firewire
800. We occasionally backup a lot of data from any of the PCs to any of the
external drives on the server.

The first time we tried to backup some data (200GB) onto the external drive
it
took well over 24 hours. My thinking is that the hub is not dual speed and
only
10baseT. Do I need to upgrade to a dual speed hub or are there other things
I
can try first, like perhaps changing some settings on the network PCI card
(duplex
mode?)? Would a switch be better for transferring this amount of data?

Many thanks in advance

Bart.


  #2  
Old October 3rd 04, 04:45 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking
Rob Morley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,379
Default Hub or switch

In article , "Mike" bigbart5
@hotmail.com says...
I have just set-up a network with three PCs connected to an old server via a
hub.
The server has various external drives connected via firewire, USB2 and
firewire
800. We occasionally backup a lot of data from any of the PCs to any of the
external drives on the server.

The first time we tried to backup some data (200GB) onto the external drive
it
took well over 24 hours. My thinking is that the hub is not dual speed and
only
10baseT. Do I need to upgrade to a dual speed hub or are there other things
I
can try first, like perhaps changing some settings on the network PCI card
(duplex
mode?)? Would a switch be better for transferring this amount of data?

duplex is faster, but only works with a switch

Quick approximation:
100Mbps = 12.5Mbps
200000MB / 12.5MBps = 16000s = 4.5 hours

So if a 100Mbps network connection managed to transfer 100Mbits of data
in a second (which it doesn't), and there was nothing else using the
network, it would take 4.5 hours to copy the 200GB of data.

So upgrade your entire network to 100Mbps and a switch, and it will
still be on the slow side for shifting that amount of data. If you only
do it occasionally, and the network is otherwise adequate for your
needs, I'd suggest getting some hard drive caddies that allow you to
pull a disk from one of the machines and stick it in another to copy the
data across.
  #3  
Old October 3rd 04, 05:13 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking
Mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Hub or switch


"Rob Morley" wrote in message
t...
In article


duplex is faster, but only works with a switch

Quick approximation:
100Mbps = 12.5Mbps
200000MB / 12.5MBps = 16000s = 4.5 hours

So if a 100Mbps network connection managed to transfer 100Mbits of data
in a second (which it doesn't), and there was nothing else using the
network, it would take 4.5 hours to copy the 200GB of data.

So upgrade your entire network to 100Mbps and a switch, and it will
still be on the slow side for shifting that amount of data. If you only
do it occasionally, and the network is otherwise adequate for your
needs, I'd suggest getting some hard drive caddies that allow you to
pull a disk from one of the machines and stick it in another to copy the
data across.


Thanks Rob.

We had all the drives plugged into various machines before, and we were
constantly plugging and unplugging bits of kit. So we've put the network to
centralise everything. We don't mind if shifting data takes a long time, as
long as we can leave it overnight and it's done by the morning.

What would you recommend for upgrading the network to 100Mbps in terms of
cabling and which switch would you recommend?

Thanks


  #4  
Old October 3rd 04, 06:47 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking
Dr Zoidberg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 43
Default Hub or switch

Mike wrote:
I have just set-up a network with three PCs connected to an old
server via a hub.
The server has various external drives connected via firewire, USB2
and firewire
800. We occasionally backup a lot of data from any of the PCs to any
of the external drives on the server.

The first time we tried to backup some data (200GB) onto the external
drive it
took well over 24 hours. My thinking is that the hub is not dual
speed and only
10baseT. Do I need to upgrade to a dual speed hub or are there other
things I
can try first, like perhaps changing some settings on the network PCI
card (duplex
mode?)? Would a switch be better for transferring this amount of
data?

Sounds like you might have a duplex setting wrong on one of the machines.
If one is running at full when it should be half then your speeds will go
through the floor.
I'd still buy a switch though. A 4 port one shoudln't cost much more than a
tenner and will be far more effective than a hub.

--
Alex

"We are now up against live, hostile targets"

"So, if Little Red Riding Hood should show up with a bazooka and a bad
attitude, I expect you to chin the bitch! "

www.drzoidberg.co.uk
www.ebayfaq.co.uk


  #5  
Old October 3rd 04, 06:58 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking
Michael Salem
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 79
Default Hub or switch

Rob Morley wrote:
In article , "Mike" bigbart5
@hotmail.com says...
I have just set-up a network with three PCs connected to an old server via a
hub.
The server has various external drives connected via firewire, USB2 and
firewire
800. We occasionally backup a lot of data from any of the PCs to any of the
external drives on the server.

The first time we tried to backup some data (200GB) onto the external drive
it
took well over 24 hours. My thinking is that the hub is not dual speed and
only
10baseT. Do I need to upgrade to a dual speed hub or are there other things
I
can try first, like perhaps changing some settings on the network PCI card
(duplex
mode?)? Would a switch be better for transferring this amount of data?

duplex is faster, but only works with a switch


I don't think full-duplex will help much if you're transferring data in
one direction.

Quick approximation:
100Mbps = 12.5Mbps
200000MB / 12.5MBps = 16000s = 4.5 hours


This is seriously over-optimistic; a 100Mbps network will not come close
to this speed. I'd expect about 4 Megabytes/sec.

So if a 100Mbps network connection managed to transfer 100Mbits of data
in a second (which it doesn't), and there was nothing else using the
network, it would take 4.5 hours to copy the 200GB of data.

So upgrade your entire network to 100Mbps and a switch, and it will
still be on the slow side for shifting that amount of data. If you only
do it occasionally, and the network is otherwise adequate for your
needs, I'd suggest getting some hard drive caddies that allow you to
pull a disk from one of the machines and stick it in another to copy the
data across.


For the specific purpose of transferring large amounts of data, you
might experiment with a simple point-to-point connection using 100Mbps
network cards in both machines and a Cat5 crossover cable without a hub
or switch: this will give you a benchmark to aim at with your switch.


From an Internet discussion (undated):
"Arno_Millenaar
Have tried about everything that I could find on the net, MTU, Rec/Send
buffer size adjustments, setting all network cards to full duplex
100Mps, etc, etc. Nothing really made a difference. Until I found
somewhere that somebody had changed it hub/switch and this solved the
problem. Could not really understand why as previous using w2k pc's the
problem was not there. However removed the 3-4 year old 3Com Hub's and
replaced it with a new 16 port EDIMAX. The main difference between the
3Com Switch (model 3C16750B) and the new EDIMAX (model ES-3116RL) is
that this new switch is an active switch with store-and-forward
switching architecture (512Kb memory buffer). With this new switch,
using a mix of about 10 PC's 1 x RH-Linux, 5 x w2k and 4 x XP (SP2) the
file transfer is back to where it belongs. Using the XP network monitor,
I can now see close 100% bandwidth utilization (with old 3Com switch
below 10% !) and no collisions. Before buying the new switch I tried
some other hub's I still had. However no improvement as they are all
'passive' switches.

I only paid for the EDIMAX switch EURO 69.=

Wanted to share this with this forum, as I have struggled so much in the
past weeks/months, and the solution to the problem wasn't obvious. So go
out and buy a new generation "Store and Forward" switching architecture
switch if you have similar problems."


HTH,
--
Michael Salem
  #6  
Old October 3rd 04, 07:16 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking
Bernard Peek
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 202
Default Hub or switch

In message , Rob Morley
writes



duplex is faster, but only works with a switch

Quick approximation:
100Mbps = 12.5Mbps
200000MB / 12.5MBps = 16000s = 4.5 hours


So a 10Mb network would take a minimum of 45 hours. Therefore the
network must have 100Mb hardware end-to-end. The actual transfer rate
appears to be about a sixth of the theoretical speed. That suggests a
problem, I would have expected it to take around 8 hours.

I wonder what other network traffic was going on at the same time?


So if a 100Mbps network connection managed to transfer 100Mbits of data
in a second (which it doesn't), and there was nothing else using the
network, it would take 4.5 hours to copy the 200GB of data.

So upgrade your entire network to 100Mbps and a switch, and it will
still be on the slow side for shifting that amount of data. If you only
do it occasionally, and the network is otherwise adequate for your
needs, I'd suggest getting some hard drive caddies that allow you to
pull a disk from one of the machines and stick it in another to copy the
data across.


Or got to gigabit Ethernet.


--
Bernard Peek
London, UK. DBA, Manager, Trainer & Author. Will work for money.

  #7  
Old October 3rd 04, 07:18 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking
Rob Morley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,379
Default Hub or switch

In article , "Mike" bigbart5
@hotmail.com says...
snip

We had all the drives plugged into various machines before, and we were
constantly plugging and unplugging bits of kit. So we've put the network to
centralise everything. We don't mind if shifting data takes a long time, as
long as we can leave it overnight and it's done by the morning.


Fairy nuff. Gigabit on copper is getting cheaper these days:

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/produ...duct_uid=51797
http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/produ...duct_uid=58040


What would you recommend for upgrading the network to 100Mbps in terms of
cabling and which switch would you recommend?

You don't say what the physical layout is, so for cable I can only say
Cat5e. I tend to use D-Link kit because it's cheap (some would say
"cheap and nasty", but I've never had any problems). Netgear and
Linksys do similar stuff.

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/produ...duct_uid=26037
  #8  
Old October 3rd 04, 07:32 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking
Rob Morley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,379
Default Hub or switch

In article , "Michael
Salem" says...
Rob Morley wrote:

snip
duplex is faster, but only works with a switch


I don't think full-duplex will help much if you're transferring data in
one direction.


True, but he was talking about changing duplex settings with his
existing 10Mbps non-switching hub.

Quick approximation:
100Mbps = 12.5Mbps
200000MB / 12.5MBps = 16000s = 4.5 hours


This is seriously over-optimistic; a 100Mbps network will not come close
to this speed. I'd expect about 4 Megabytes/sec.


I know - did you read the next sentence?

So if a 100Mbps network connection managed to transfer 100Mbits of data
in a second (which it doesn't), and there was nothing else using the
network, it would take 4.5 hours to copy the 200GB of data.

So upgrade your entire network to 100Mbps and a switch, and it will
still be on the slow side for shifting that amount of data. If you only
do it occasionally, and the network is otherwise adequate for your
needs, I'd suggest getting some hard drive caddies that allow you to
pull a disk from one of the machines and stick it in another to copy the
data across.


For the specific purpose of transferring large amounts of data, you
might experiment with a simple point-to-point connection using 100Mbps
network cards in both machines and a Cat5 crossover cable without a hub
or switch: this will give you a benchmark to aim at with your switch.

This should make next to no difference on a quiet network.
  #9  
Old October 3rd 04, 07:34 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking
logized
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 19
Default Hub or switch


"Mike" wrote in message
...
I have just set-up a network with three PCs connected to an old server via
a
hub.
The server has various external drives connected via firewire, USB2 and
firewire
800. We occasionally backup a lot of data from any of the PCs to any of
the
external drives on the server.

The first time we tried to backup some data (200GB) onto the external
drive
it
took well over 24 hours. My thinking is that the hub is not dual speed
and
only
10baseT. Do I need to upgrade to a dual speed hub or are there other
things
I
can try first, like perhaps changing some settings on the network PCI card
(duplex
mode?)? Would a switch be better for transferring this amount of data?

Many thanks in advance

Bart.


An online file transfer calculator could give a rough idea of how long it
should take to transfer a single file size, see
http://www2.arnes.si/~kriskem1/hihi/calc_trans.htm
If you are transferring many files and directories, then the server would
also add to the delay as it works hard to create the new files and
directories.
If your hub is only 10Mbs, then it is worth upgrading anyway as 100Mbs
switches can be bought quite cheaply and also upgrade the pc network adapter
cards if not already compatible.
Enabling full duplex could improve the transfer time slightly as it would
enable the server to send acknowledgements without interrupting the
transfer.
Using a backup program that optimises the compression of files during
transfer could save time also.

Dave


 




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