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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

Why is ADSL so finicky?



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 7th 06, 05:41 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Pier Danone
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Posts: 103
Default Why is ADSL so finicky?


"David M" wrote in message
...
| Sorry, this is just a letting-off-steam grumble..
|
|
| Why is ADSL so finicky?
|

It's not. It's a solid and robust technology that works very well over a fragile
phone network never designed for such use.
If you have a sync problem then there is a fault. It's that simple. Don't blame
ADSL for your ISP's inability to get it resolved.


  #3  
Old June 8th 06, 03:09 AM
jannerboy's Avatar
jannerboy jannerboy is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 25
Default


i think we have a contradiction in definition here - ADSL cant be a "robust" solution for increased data transfer speeds, if the network its delivered over is "fragile".
'standard' adsl is quite robust.
its MAXadsl that is proving to be less so.
  #5  
Old June 8th 06, 12:35 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
ato_zee[email protected]
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Posts: 529
Default Why is ADSL so finicky?


On 8-Jun-2006, "PhilT" wrote:

If the stupid buggers had built in a BERT test then the ISP could
initiate a test, as could the customer.


I do that by pressing the BERT Test button on the web interface of a
50 router.

Phil


So if everyone had this, all they have to do is take a printout
of the results, then keep hammering their ISP until they fix
the sync loss and error related problems???
Great, just what's needed.
No arguments or debate as to what's wrong any more, it's
all there in black and white "Get an engineer out a fix it."
BT and the ISP's will love this, the basic fault finding done
for them, error rate figures, with date and time.
  #6  
Old June 8th 06, 01:11 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Ian Bartholomew
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 53
Default Why is ADSL so finicky?

wrote in message
...

So if everyone had this, all they have to do is take a printout
of the results, then keep hammering their ISP until they fix
the sync loss and error related problems???
Great, just what's needed.
No arguments or debate as to what's wrong any more, it's
all there in black and white "Get an engineer out a fix it."
BT and the ISP's will love this, the basic fault finding done
for them, error rate figures, with date and time.


Why would it help? What's different between showing a documented print out
of the normal error stats produced by a router and a documented printout of
a BERT.

Anyway, I've run the BERT in my router (a Voyager 240) when the SNR has
dropped on my line, to a level where the various error counters are going
up, and it has returned 0. I'm sure it would fail, and provide me with
documented figures, if I was to leave it running for longer periods but it
seems a bit pointless - especially if the cause of the errors is bursty.

--
Ian

Use the Reply-To address to contact me (limited validity).
Mail sent to the From address is ignored.


  #7  
Old June 8th 06, 01:17 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
kraftee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,069
Default Why is ADSL so finicky?

Ian Bartholomew wrote:
wrote in message
...

So if everyone had this, all they have to do is take a printout
of the results, then keep hammering their ISP until they fix
the sync loss and error related problems???
Great, just what's needed.
No arguments or debate as to what's wrong any more, it's
all there in black and white "Get an engineer out a fix it."
BT and the ISP's will love this, the basic fault finding done
for them, error rate figures, with date and time.


Why would it help? What's different between showing a documented
print out of the normal error stats produced by a router and a
documented printout of a BERT.

Anyway, I've run the BERT in my router (a Voyager 240) when the SNR
has dropped on my line, to a level where the various error counters
are going up, and it has returned 0. I'm sure it would fail, and
provide me with documented figures, if I was to leave it running
for longer periods but it seems a bit pointless - especially if the
cause of the errors is bursty.


BT also hold a history of what a line is doing anyway, the problem is
getting the ISP to talk to the right people. Normally if I'm
investigatng an intermitent problem I can contact at least 2
departments who can tell me how the line has been performing, packet
loss etc. A large number of ISP's only appear to believe the Whoosh
test results & nothing else unfortunately.


  #9  
Old June 8th 06, 05:02 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Pier Danone
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 103
Default Why is ADSL so finicky?


"jannerboy" wrote in message
...
|
| Pier Danone Wrote:
| "David M" wrote in message
| ...
| | Sorry, this is just a letting-off-steam grumble..
| |
| |
| | Why is ADSL so finicky?
| |
|
| It's not. It's a solid and robust technology that works very well over
| a fragile
| phone network never designed for such use.
| If you have a sync problem then there is a fault. It's that simple.
| Don't blame
| ADSL for your ISP's inability to get it resolved.
|
|
| i think we have a contradiction in definition here - ADSL cant be a
| "robust" solution for increased data transfer speeds, if the network
| its delivered over is "fragile".

Indeed it can. You can call glass fragile and yet make it strong enough to stand
on or strong enough to stop you from falling out of a skyscraper.

| 'standard' adsl is quite robust.
| its MAXadsl that is proving to be less so.

MaxADSL is just rate adaptive DSL. It's just as robust. What you may mean is
that many people are ****ed off as they can't get the speeds they feel they
deserve.
It's quite a different thing to expect something more than a technology can
provide. Remember, those wires carrying DSL were designed for speech. If you
feel you can do better please approach a bank and tell them you want to set up
in business building a better network. Why not call yourself 'Mercury' or
something ;-)





  #10  
Old June 8th 06, 06:11 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Alan J. Flavell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 126
Default Why is ADSL so finicky?

On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, Pier Danone wrote:

MaxADSL is just rate adaptive DSL. It's just as robust.


Once it's picked the right speed, my line stays up for days on end.

Unfortunately, if I restart the router as a time when the line is
quieter than normal, it'll choose too high a speed (say, around 6.7M).
Then it's sure to fail sync a few hours later as the line gets noisy -
and restart with a lower speed (say 6.3M). After a while, it'll fail
again, and restart around say 6.0M.

Indeed, when I was powering it off while I was out of the house, and
powering it up when I got in (around 6 or 7 pm), it would always start
too high, and then sync would fail within a couple of hours. But if
left up, then after a few tries it homes-in on a speed around 5.9 or
6.0, and then stays up for days on end (weeks, if given the chance).

What you may mean is that many people are ****ed off as they can't
get the speeds they feel they deserve.


If you're talking about IP throughput, then that's a very different
thing than the raw line speed.

It's quite a different thing to expect something more than a
technology can provide.


BT seem to be rather conservative about the IP throughput. It's fast
enough for my home needs, and it's never going to be as fast as the
Gbit ports we have in the office ;-) so I'm not losing sleep over it.

But there's quite a gap between the IP download throughput that I can
measure, and the raw line speed - much more than can be accounted for
by protocol overheads.

Coming back to the ADSL line speed, I wish that I could tell my ADSL
modem not to bother with trying ADSL line speeds over a certain value
(I would set mine to 6.0M), knowing that anything more is sure to fail
sync within a few hours (and break all my ongoing ssh sessions,
grumble). Apparently some routers have such a setting, but mine
doesn't seem to have (or rather - frustratingly, it does seem to have
a *setting*, but it produces no effect in practice).
 




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