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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

ADSL cabling question



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 1st 06, 07:28 PM posted to uk.telecom,uk.telecom.broadband
Alan J. Flavell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 126
Default ADSL cabling question

On Sat, 1 Jul 2006, Peter Crosland wrote on uk.telecom:

Windows ME... gotta love it.


Using Windows ME is only for those studying postgraduate masochism quite
apart from the fact that it is very insecure.


Proper ADSL routers don't care what OS your actual boxes are running.
You have a free choice.

Try and persuade your friend to get something more robust.


Indeed: but once the important decision has been taken, the end-point
OS isn't so much of an issue.

Just forget USB-connected ADSL modems - they're a pointless
distraction. Real routers rule, IMNSHO...

Not only real OSes, but even insecure GUIs from the house of MS, can
be protected against direct attack.

[x-posted and f'ups to a more-relevant group]


  #2  
Old July 1st 06, 08:38 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Peter Crosland
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,463
Default ADSL cabling question

Windows ME... gotta love it.

Using Windows ME is only for those studying postgraduate masochism
quite apart from the fact that it is very insecure.


Proper ADSL routers don't care what OS your actual boxes are running.
You have a free choice.


With respect you are missing the point. Windows ME has all sorts of
insecurities that are still there regardless of what router/modem one uses.

Try and persuade your friend to get something more robust.


Indeed: but once the important decision has been taken, the end-point
OS isn't so much of an issue.


Se above.

Just forget USB-connected ADSL modems - they're a pointless
distraction. Real routers rule, IMNSHO...


Agreed.

Not only real OSes, but even insecure GUIs from the house of MS, can
be protected against direct attack.


Just exactly how do you define a "real" OS? A quick look at the OED offers
no clues that might suggest Windows is anything but real.

Peter Crosland


  #3  
Old July 1st 06, 08:58 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Alan J. Flavell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 126
Default ADSL cabling question

On Sat, 1 Jul 2006, Peter Crosland wrote:

Proper ADSL routers don't care what OS your actual boxes are running.
You have a free choice.


With respect you are missing the point. Windows ME has all sorts of
insecurities that are still there regardless of what router/modem
one uses.


There are, crudely speaking, two ways of compromises OSes (and OS-like
GUIs) over the network:

One is to attack the OS with dangerous network packets. This can do
harm regardless of the actual intentions of the user. But if the ADSL
router doesn't let the packets get that far, then no harm is done to
the actual host. That's the point I was making about using an ADSL
router (assuming the usual safe-ish kind of configuration).

The other is to fool the user into a position where they *ask* to be
compromised. Those possibilities exist with any OS. The better OSes
protect normal unprivileged user accounts from damaging the OS itself,
even if their user is so naive as to try. Conversely, even real OSes
allow a sufficiently privileged user to shoot themself in the foot,
which is why it's advisable to run as a normal user when one is not
actually intending to shoot oneself in the foot.

Indeed: but once the important decision has been taken, the
end-point OS isn't so much of an issue.


Se above.


U2 ;-)

Not only real OSes, but even insecure GUIs from the house of MS,
can be protected against direct attack.


Just exactly how do you define a "real" OS?


I don't think I need to. Those who care will already know what I
mean, while those who profess to not understand are unlikely to learn
anything new from this encounter.

A quick look at the OED


You don't seriously expect that to throw light on a computer-technical
issue?

offers no clues that might suggest Windows is anything but real.


"Windows" is meaningless. Did you mean X Windows (which usually runs
on top of a real operating system), or MS Windows 9x and f(r)iends
(about which, the less said the better), or MS Windows NT and its
successors, or what ?
  #4  
Old July 1st 06, 10:51 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Paul Cupis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 802
Default ADSL cabling question

Alan J. Flavell wrote:
Did you mean X Windows (which usually runs on top of a real operating system)


pedant
I think you mean the X Window System, not "X Windows".
/pedant
  #5  
Old July 2nd 06, 03:47 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
David Woodhouse
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default ADSL cabling question

On Sat, 2006-07-01 at 19:28 +0100, Alan J. Flavell wrote:
Just forget USB-connected ADSL modems - they're a pointless
distraction. Real routers rule, IMNSHO...


I don't agree with that. None of the 'real routers' which are cheaply
available do the things I want from the DSL router -- proper traffic
shaping, native IPv6 on the DSL line, etc.

A USB SpeedTouch in a Linux box does that quite nicely; at least now I
worked out how to make Linux do the same as the Windows "Extended Reach"
driver so I consistently sync at above 1152Kb/s. (It's very important to
stay above 1152, thanks the fact that BT in their wisdom impose a rate
limit of ˝Mb/s I happen to sync at 1120Kb/s for a few moments, instead
of just letting my ISP rate-limit to the precise speed that I synced
at.)

The only thing that would persuade me to switch from the USB modem would
be if I could actually get more than the 6Mb/s or so that it can handle.

--
dwmw2

  #6  
Old July 2nd 06, 04:14 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Alan J. Flavell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 126
Default ADSL cabling question

On Sun, 2 Jul 2006, David Woodhouse wrote:

On Sat, 2006-07-01 at 19:28 +0100, Alan J. Flavell wrote:
Just forget USB-connected ADSL modems - they're a pointless
distraction. Real routers rule, IMNSHO...


I don't agree with that.


And you'd recommend and support your own approach for anyone who asks?

None of the 'real routers' which are cheaply available do the things
I want from the DSL router -- proper traffic shaping, native IPv6 on
the DSL line, etc.


Obviously there are exceptions to every general rule. The important
thing is that you understand *why* you're an exception to the general
rule, and that you have the skill and patience to support it.

A USB SpeedTouch in a Linux box does that quite nicely;


Some of the routers which one can buy , show evidence of running some
kind of linux or *BSD under the covers. So you decided to build your
own. Fine, if it works: but again the key question is, would you
actually recommend and commit to supporting this solution for anyone
who cared to ask your advice?

I must say that if anyone asks my advice, I try to fit the advice to
the person asking. This might, in some cases, involve advising them
not to copy what I did myself. And explaining why, if they want to
know.

atb.
  #7  
Old July 2nd 06, 07:31 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
David Woodhouse
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default ADSL cabling question

On Sun, 2006-07-02 at 16:14 +0100, Alan J. Flavell wrote:
On Sun, 2 Jul 2006, David Woodhouse wrote:

On Sat, 2006-07-01 at 19:28 +0100, Alan J. Flavell wrote:
Just forget USB-connected ADSL modems - they're a pointless
distraction. Real routers rule, IMNSHO...


I don't agree with that.


And you'd recommend and support your own approach for anyone who asks?


Yes.

A USB SpeedTouch in a Linux box does that quite nicely;


Some of the routers which one can buy , show evidence of running some
kind of linux or *BSD under the covers. So you decided to build your
own. Fine, if it works: but again the key question is, would you
actually recommend and commit to supporting this solution for anyone
who cared to ask your advice?


Absolutely. The USB Speedtouch is ubiquitous and cheap (if not free),
and generally does the job just fine -- as long as you aren't getting
more than 6Mb/s as I originally said.

I went to great lengths to ensure that it works out of the box in recent
versions of Fedora -- all you have to do is provide the firmware for it,
which we're not permitted to redistribute. We ship the pppoatm module,
we have proper support for it in the networking initscripts, etc.

If anyone has problems with my approach, I _do_ support it. It should
"just work" -- and if it doesn't, I want to know about it. If you break
it, file bugs in Red Hat bugzilla and make sure you Cc me.

I don't do python though, so I haven't done the point-and-drool tools --
we could probably do with updating the system-config-network tool so
that it lets you set up pppoatm without having to read the HOWTO.

I must say that if anyone asks my advice, I try to fit the advice to
the person asking. This might, in some cases, involve advising them
not to copy what I did myself. And explaining why, if they want to
know.


I do the same. In this case I was responding to your general statement
about USB modems being a "pointless distraction". I didn't see the
original post, which wasn't on u.t.b. and seemed to be either about
cabling or about general deficiencies of Windows ME, depending on
whether I believe the subject header or the part you quoted.

--
dwmw2

 




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