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uk.telecom.voip (UK VOIP) (uk.telecom.voip) Discussion of topics relevant to packet based voice technologies including Voice over IP (VoIP), Fax over IP (FoIP), Voice over Frame Relay (VoFR), Voice over Broadband (VoB) and Voice on the Net (VoN) as well as service providers, hardware and software for use with these technologies. Advertising is not allowed.

Skype protocol cracked



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 14th 06, 06:51 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
themgt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 76
Default Skype protocol cracked

http://www.cio.com/blog_view.html?CID=22974

Hopefully they don't keep this to themselves.
  #2  
Old July 14th 06, 07:25 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
alexd
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Posts: 331
Default Skype protocol cracked

TheMgt wrote:

http://www.cio.com/blog_view.html?CID=22974


From TFA:

# [...] according to a statement from Skype. "Moreover, no amount of reverse
# engineering would threaten Skype?s cryptographic security or integrity."

So Skype are saying there's no problem with reverse engineering their
protocol then ;-)

# "Skype?s conversations are still secure, but what?s not secure is their
# present business model of using everybody else?s computer to propagate the
# Skype network," Paglee said.

Why do people bang on about Skype stealing bandwidth? If you use Skype to
have conversations with people, then *you* are using other people's
bandwidth. It's not as if anyone's had a gun put to their head and been
forced to install Skype, is it? If you don't want your bandwidth
being 'stolen', don't install Skype.

Hopefully they don't keep this to themselves.


I'm not convinced that this is really anything significant. Anyone who can
install Skype can install X-lite or a million other free softphones and
start making calls. So what if you can write Yet Another Softphone, that
just happens to work with Skype? Skype is going to lose the battle to SIP
and become just another proprietary VoIP protocol that fades into
irrelevance when people see there's a better way. Although I guess if you
live under a tyrannical regime, it's nice to be able to have anonymous
secure conversations.

--
http://ale.cx/ (AIM:troffasky) )
19:12:16 up 2 days, 9:52, 2 users, load average: 0.67, 0.64, 0.79
This is my BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMSTICK

  #3  
Old July 15th 06, 01:19 AM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Adam Aglionby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33
Default Skype protocol cracked


alexd wrote:
TheMgt wrote:

http://www.cio.com/blog_view.html?CID=22974


From TFA:

# [...] according to a statement from Skype. "Moreover, no amount of reverse
# engineering would threaten Skype?s cryptographic security or integrity."

So Skype are saying there's no problem with reverse engineering their
protocol then ;-)


Just like kazaa lite didnt affect them.

# "Skype?s conversations are still secure, but what?s not secure is their
# present business model of using everybody else?s computer to propagate the
# Skype network," Paglee said.


At least skype is encrpyted which don think SIP is?

Why do people bang on about Skype stealing bandwidth? If you use Skype to
have conversations with people, then *you* are using other people's
bandwidth. It's not as if anyone's had a gun put to their head and been
forced to install Skype, is it? If you don't want your bandwidth
being 'stolen', don't install Skype.


Its people not being aware of skype using bandwidth when they are not
using it, with the chronic capped bandwidth deals some people are
landed with they probably got a better deal on dial up.

Adam


Hopefully they don't keep this to themselves.


I'm not convinced that this is really anything significant. Anyone who can
install Skype can install X-lite or a million other free softphones and
start making calls. So what if you can write Yet Another Softphone, that
just happens to work with Skype? Skype is going to lose the battle to SIP
and become just another proprietary VoIP protocol that fades into
irrelevance when people see there's a better way. Although I guess if you
live under a tyrannical regime, it's nice to be able to have anonymous
secure conversations.
--
http://ale.cx/ (AIM:troffasky) )
19:12:16 up 2 days, 9:52, 2 users, load average: 0.67, 0.64, 0.79
This is my BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMSTICK


  #4  
Old July 15th 06, 07:43 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
alexd
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 331
Default Skype protocol cracked

Adam Aglionby wrote:

alexd wrote:


So Skype are saying there's no problem with reverse engineering their
protocol then ;-)


Just like kazaa lite didnt affect them.


Is that sarcasm?

At least skype is encrpyted which don think SIP is?


You can encrypt RTP streams with SRTP, but anyone eavesdropping will still
know who you're talking to. Not sure if SSIP is implemented. Probably
easier to tunnel SIP+RTP through a VPN and use standard SIP user agents
than trying to find user agents [and possibly a proxy] that support SRTP
and SSIP.

Why do people bang on about Skype stealing bandwidth? If you use Skype to
have conversations with people, then *you* are using other people's
bandwidth. It's not as if anyone's had a gun put to their head and been
forced to install Skype, is it? If you don't want your bandwidth
being 'stolen', don't install Skype.


Its people not being aware of skype using bandwidth when they are not
using it, with the chronic capped bandwidth deals some people are
landed with they probably got a better deal on dial up.


User's lack of bandwidth != Skype's fault. If you go to skype.com, click
on 'Help' and put 'bandwidth' in the search box, you'll get the requisite
information - although I noticed that they specify the usage in bytes, not
bits [like the rest of the universe does when referring to bandwidth],
which is a little disingenuous. Not sure if Skype's claims need to be taken
with a pinch of salt or not, however.

If bandwidth is *that* critical to you:
a) You'll be watching your bandwidth use closely enough to notice it shot up
when you started using Skype
b) Get a better ISP
c) Close the program when you're not using it

Above all, Skype is free and no-one forces you to use it.

--
http://ale.cx/ (AIM:troffasky) )
19:11:54 up 3 days, 9:51, 1 user, load average: 0.22, 0.23, 0.17
This is my BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMSTICK

  #5  
Old July 15th 06, 10:26 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 248
Default Skype protocol cracked

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 18:25:52 GMT, alexd wrote:

Why do people bang on about Skype stealing bandwidth? If you use Skype to
have conversations with people, then *you* are using other people's
bandwidth.


If you are conversing with someone else, and you are both behind NAT
routers (which is normal) the call goes via a third party who does not
have NAT addressing.

You use your bandwidth, the person you are calling's bandwidth, and
some unsuspecting third party's bandwidth.
  #7  
Old July 16th 06, 11:13 AM posted to uk.telecom.voip
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 248
Default Skype protocol cracked

On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 22:47:51 +0000 (UTC), Brian
wrote:

If this third party is ignorant or unsuspecting of the use of their
bandwidth they might have failed to read or understand the Terms and
Policies of Skype Technologies SA. Nevertheless, they have agreed to
accept them by downloading and installing the Skype program. Not being
aware that they have given permission for their bandwidth to be used is
hardly a reason for them or anyone else to imply there is a theft of
resources involved.


Just because someone agreed to T&Cs does not mean that they understood
the technical implications.

Given that Skype's main selling point is that you don't need to be
technical to install and use it, I really don't think that the average
user will understand the ramifications of proxying NATted connections
via a third party, and won't grasp that this could use their bandwidth
even if they are neither making nor receiving calls.

But that does rather miss the point that many users do not "own" the
network they are using, and they may not have to power to grant
unlimited use of someone else's bandwidth.

The fact that Skype works so hard to get round port blocks seems a
sign that it knows it may not be a welcome guest.

I'd bet that the majority of Skype users don't know about this, T&C's
or not.
  #8  
Old July 16th 06, 12:17 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
themgt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 76
Default Skype protocol cracked

alexd wrote:
TheMgt wrote:

http://www.cio.com/blog_view.html?CID=22974


From TFA:

# [...] according to a statement from Skype. "Moreover, no amount of reverse
# engineering would threaten Skype?s cryptographic security or integrity."

So Skype are saying there's no problem with reverse engineering their
protocol then ;-)

# "Skype?s conversations are still secure, but what?s not secure is their
# present business model of using everybody else?s computer to propagate the
# Skype network," Paglee said.

Why do people bang on about Skype stealing bandwidth? If you use Skype to
have conversations with people, then *you* are using other people's
bandwidth. It's not as if anyone's had a gun put to their head and been
forced to install Skype, is it? If you don't want your bandwidth
being 'stolen', don't install Skype.

Hopefully they don't keep this to themselves.


I'm not convinced that this is really anything significant. Anyone who can
install Skype can install X-lite or a million other free softphones and
start making calls. So what if you can write Yet Another Softphone, that
just happens to work with Skype? Skype is going to lose the battle to SIP
and become just another proprietary VoIP protocol that fades into
irrelevance when people see there's a better way. Although I guess if you
live under a tyrannical regime, it's nice to be able to have anonymous
secure conversations.


I'm hoping it makes a skype extension for asterisk more likely

http://www.voip-info.org/wiki-bounty+skype
  #9  
Old July 16th 06, 02:24 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Brian
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 308
Default Skype protocol cracked

On 2006-07-16, wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 22:47:51 +0000 (UTC), Brian
wrote:

If this third party is ignorant or unsuspecting of the use of their
bandwidth they might have failed to read or understand the Terms and
Policies of Skype Technologies SA. Nevertheless, they have agreed to
accept them by downloading and installing the Skype program. Not being
aware that they have given permission for their bandwidth to be used is
hardly a reason for them or anyone else to imply there is a theft of
resources involved.


Just because someone agreed to T&Cs does not mean that they understood
the technical implications.

Given that Skype's main selling point is that you don't need to be
technical to install and use it, I really don't think that the average
user will understand the ramifications of proxying NATted connections
via a third party, and won't grasp that this could use their bandwidth
even if they are neither making nor receiving calls.


The Skype website does explain what they mean by P2P and devotes some
space to talking about bandwidth usage. Their forums also have plenty
of discussion on both topics. While I might agree with you about the
average user not completely understanding the technical details there is
sufficient information to indicate the software does utilise their
bandwidth at all times. Now if they cannot be bothered to read what is
there they have no chance of bettering their understanding.

But that does rather miss the point that many users do not "own" the
network they are using, and they may not have to power to grant
unlimited use of someone else's bandwidth.


That's an important point and one which a Skype user probably doesn't
give much thought to. The website P2P explanation rather gives the
impression that bandwidth is a common resource to be shared at all
times.

I think there are some UK universities which restricted or banned the
use of Skype but maybe they have relented. I am unware of any ISPs
publically preventing Skype being used so can one assume they grant
permission for some of their network resources to be devoted to handling
the bandwidth demands from other than their own customers?

Brian.
  #10  
Old July 17th 06, 01:44 AM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Adam Aglionby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33
Default Skype protocol cracked


alexd wrote:
Adam Aglionby wrote:

alexd wrote:


So Skype are saying there's no problem with reverse engineering their
protocol then ;-)


Just like kazaa lite didnt affect them.


Is that sarcasm?


Well Kazaa didn`t live long enuff to switch it off I suppose


At least skype is encrpyted which don think SIP is?


You can encrypt RTP streams with SRTP, but anyone eavesdropping will still
know who you're talking to. Not sure if SSIP is implemented. Probably
easier to tunnel SIP+RTP through a VPN and use standard SIP user agents
than trying to find user agents [and possibly a proxy] that support SRTP
and SSIP.


Er, in short, its not simple. Thanks have some reading to do obviously
;-)


Why do people bang on about Skype stealing bandwidth? If you use Skype to
have conversations with people, then *you* are using other people's
bandwidth. It's not as if anyone's had a gun put to their head and been
forced to install Skype, is it? If you don't want your bandwidth
being 'stolen', don't install Skype.


Its people not being aware of skype using bandwidth when they are not
using it, with the chronic capped bandwidth deals some people are
landed with they probably got a better deal on dial up.


User's lack of bandwidth != Skype's fault. If you go to skype.com, click
on 'Help' and put 'bandwidth' in the search box, you'll get the requisite
information - although I noticed that they specify the usage in bytes, not
bits [like the rest of the universe does when referring to bandwidth],
which is a little disingenuous. Not sure if Skype's claims need to be taken
with a pinch of salt or not, however.


Lies ,damned lies and statistics suppose. Is there an average figure
for SIP bandwidth use?


If bandwidth is *that* critical to you:
a) You'll be watching your bandwidth use closely enough to notice it shot up
when you started using Skype


Lot of low bandwidth package buyers may not be the most technically
adept, anticpating their needs to be communication based possibly,
email and a few Skype calls, and may have no idea how to monitor usage.

b) Get a better ISP


Bingo, lot of the capped deals are apalling value for money, vote with
your cash.

c) Close the program when you're not using it


Makes receiving calls kind of tricky.


Above all, Skype is free and no-one forces you to use it.


Absolutely, its robust , will work on dial up at a push, hops round
firewalls, is encrypted end to end and non technical users can install
and use it with minimum of fuss.

Would think that allowing some sort of API or protocol to access skype
for incorporation into other products would help though.

Adam


--
http://ale.cx/ (AIM:troffasky) )
19:11:54 up 3 days, 9:51, 1 user, load average: 0.22, 0.23, 0.17
This is my BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMSTICK


 




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