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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

LLU Question



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 8th 06, 09:46 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
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Posts: n/a
Default LLU Question

As a long term lurker, and an occasional poster, on this newsgroup I thought
that I understood what LLU was all about. To my mind it was an option that I
exercised to perhaps gain an advantage for, say cheaper calls or for reduced
line rental compared to BT prices by buying a package of services.

I have noted the problems and anguish of some who have moved over to LLU and
the probably difficulties of migration to another ISP, or even restablishing a
relationship with BT for just voice calls. It is my belief that BT managed
the infrastructure well and in the event of a problem I can dial a Freephone
number to activate a fault report, well during normal working hours at least.

So with that viewpoint I have considerable difficulties in getting to grips
with what is going on with some Nildram customers where there is a compulsory
'mass migration' with customers unable to opt out even though they continue
to pay to BT the line rental.

To me it seems that Nildram are being a bit worryingly cavalier over this
matter and I wish to seek observations and comments on this matter from
readers of this group either to put my mind at rest or to urgently seek
another ISP to retain my status quo.

DCB



  #2  
Old September 8th 06, 11:50 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
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Posts: n/a
Default LLU Question


"Mark" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:46:55 +0100, David Bradley
wrote:

As a long term lurker, and an occasional poster, on this newsgroup I
thought
that I understood what LLU was all about. To my mind it was an option that
I
exercised to perhaps gain an advantage for, say cheaper calls or for
reduced
line rental compared to BT prices by buying a package of services.

I have noted the problems and anguish of some who have moved over to LLU
and
the probably difficulties of migration to another ISP, or even
restablishing a
relationship with BT for just voice calls. It is my belief that BT
managed
the infrastructure well and in the event of a problem I can dial a
Freephone
number to activate a fault report, well during normal working hours at
least.

So with that viewpoint I have considerable difficulties in getting to
grips
with what is going on with some Nildram customers where there is a
compulsory
'mass migration' with customers unable to opt out even though they
continue
to pay to BT the line rental.

To me it seems that Nildram are being a bit worryingly cavalier over this
matter and I wish to seek observations and comments on this matter from
readers of this group either to put my mind at rest or to urgently seek
another ISP to retain my status quo.


Don't confuse line sharing (partial unbundling) of just the high
frequency part of the line (for DSL broadband service) with full
unbundling.

With the former, you still pay BT for PSTN service - the ISP is only
concerned with the broadband service. With full unbundling (say, like
Bulldog have) you pay for both the phone service (PSTN) and broadband
from the new service provider. In that latter case BT still owns the
copper and is paid for maintenance of it - but via the unbundling
service provider not the end-user.

Sorry to say but you have no say at all in how your ISP elects to
provide your ADSL broadband service, other than walking away if its
not up to scratch, under the terms of your contract with it.


Yep - ISPs can and will unbundle (LLU) their back-end services if they find
that they can get a better financial deal than with BT Wholesale.
Mind you, LLU is not available everywhere yet - mostly the big cities.

ISPs doing such an unbundling exercise have a tendency to just do it and
inform the customer later - if they tell them at all!

Your contract is with the ISP for broadband service (howsoever they provide
it) not with one of the firms to whom they sub-contract out their back-haul
service.
You can only get a fault attended to by BT if it affects your voice
telephone service. Even if your ISP is BT Broadband, you have to go to
"BT-the-ISP" if you have a problem with your broadband service.
"BT-the-phone-company" won't deal with you.

The main problems with LLU at the moment seem to be:
1. LLU services suffering from random disconnections.
2. Customers not being told that they're being LLU'd (or told after it has
happened).
3. There is no straightforward method at the moment of getting a MAC key if
you want to transfer your service away from an LLU'd service to another ISP.

Some ISPs (eg. Plusnet) at least offer an opt-out from LLU for customers
wanting to stay on BT backhaul service. Others may not.

Similarly, BT's Max (up to 8 Meg) service may be offered by an ISP either as
a free upgrade or at a charge.
Again, some ISPs - if they are offering free/bulk upgrades - may offer an
opt-out for customers preferring to stay on their slow fixed-rate (up to 2
Meg) IPstream connection. Others may not.
As you may have read, some BT Max connections are also currently suffering
from problems, with customers experiencing reduced/wildly fluctuating
connection speeds and having to wait a couple of weeks for BT's equipment to
"learn" the optimum speed for the connection to work moist efficiently.

Being a sceptical sort, and having a nice steady 512K connection, I've opted
out of both LLU and BT Max for the moment, as the best that I can expect
from the latter is only 1.5 Meg anyway.

Until the teething troubles are sorted, I don't fancy my connection speed
going up and down like a whore's drawers!

George


  #3  
Old September 9th 06, 01:02 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default LLU Question

Mark wrote:

With the former, you still pay BT for PSTN service - the ISP is only
concerned with the broadband service.


Here's a question... If you fail pay your phone bill to BT and they
disconnect you, will your broadband still work if you're on LLU?



  #4  
Old September 9th 06, 02:17 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default LLU Question

In article ,
Mike wrote:

With the former, you still pay BT for PSTN service - the ISP is only
concerned with the broadband service.


Here's a question... If you fail pay your phone bill to BT and they
disconnect you, will your broadband still work if you're on LLU?


If you're fully unbundled, you don't get phone bills from BT.

If you're just unbundled for broadband, you're still paying them line
rental, so presumably they will cut you off completely.

-- Richard

  #5  
Old September 9th 06, 03:24 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default LLU Question



Mike wrote:

Mark wrote:

With the former, you still pay BT for PSTN service - the ISP is only
concerned with the broadband service.


Here's a question... If you fail pay your phone bill to BT and they
disconnect you, will your broadband still work if you're on LLU?


Until BT *physically* disconnect you, quite probably it will.

Graham


  #6  
Old September 9th 06, 03:25 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default LLU Question



Richard Tobin wrote:

In article ,
Mike wrote:

With the former, you still pay BT for PSTN service - the ISP is only
concerned with the broadband service.


Here's a question... If you fail pay your phone bill to BT and they
disconnect you, will your broadband still work if you're on LLU?


If you're fully unbundled, you don't get phone bills from BT.

If you're just unbundled for broadband, you're still paying them line
rental, so presumably they will cut you off completely.


I think they normally just start by barring outgoing calls.

Graham

  #7  
Old September 9th 06, 03:26 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default LLU Question



George Weston wrote:

Your contract is with the ISP for broadband service (howsoever they provide
it) not with one of the firms to whom they sub-contract out their back-haul
service.
You can only get a fault attended to by BT if it affects your voice
telephone service.


Is that so George ?

Graham

  #8  
Old September 9th 06, 04:18 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default LLU Question


"George Weston" wrote in message
...

"Mark" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:46:55 +0100, David Bradley
wrote:

As a long term lurker, and an occasional poster, on this newsgroup I
thought
that I understood what LLU was all about. To my mind it was an option
that I
exercised to perhaps gain an advantage for, say cheaper calls or for
reduced
line rental compared to BT prices by buying a package of services.

I have noted the problems and anguish of some who have moved over to LLU
and
the probably difficulties of migration to another ISP, or even
restablishing a
relationship with BT for just voice calls. It is my belief that BT
managed
the infrastructure well and in the event of a problem I can dial a
Freephone
number to activate a fault report, well during normal working hours at
least.

So with that viewpoint I have considerable difficulties in getting to
grips
with what is going on with some Nildram customers where there is a
compulsory
'mass migration' with customers unable to opt out even though they
continue
to pay to BT the line rental.

To me it seems that Nildram are being a bit worryingly cavalier over this
matter and I wish to seek observations and comments on this matter from
readers of this group either to put my mind at rest or to urgently seek
another ISP to retain my status quo.


Don't confuse line sharing (partial unbundling) of just the high
frequency part of the line (for DSL broadband service) with full
unbundling.

With the former, you still pay BT for PSTN service - the ISP is only
concerned with the broadband service. With full unbundling (say, like
Bulldog have) you pay for both the phone service (PSTN) and broadband
from the new service provider. In that latter case BT still owns the
copper and is paid for maintenance of it - but via the unbundling
service provider not the end-user.

Sorry to say but you have no say at all in how your ISP elects to
provide your ADSL broadband service, other than walking away if its
not up to scratch, under the terms of your contract with it.


Yep - ISPs can and will unbundle (LLU) their back-end services if they
find that they can get a better financial deal than with BT Wholesale.
Mind you, LLU is not available everywhere yet - mostly the big cities.

ISPs doing such an unbundling exercise have a tendency to just do it and
inform the customer later - if they tell them at all!

Your contract is with the ISP for broadband service (howsoever they
provide it) not with one of the firms to whom they sub-contract out their
back-haul service.
You can only get a fault attended to by BT if it affects your voice
telephone service. Even if your ISP is BT Broadband, you have to go to
"BT-the-ISP" if you have a problem with your broadband service.
"BT-the-phone-company" won't deal with you.

The main problems with LLU at the moment seem to be:
1. LLU services suffering from random disconnections.
2. Customers not being told that they're being LLU'd (or told after it has
happened).
3. There is no straightforward method at the moment of getting a MAC key
if you want to transfer your service away from an LLU'd service to another
ISP.

Some ISPs (eg. Plusnet) at least offer an opt-out from LLU for customers
wanting to stay on BT backhaul service. Others may not.

Similarly, BT's Max (up to 8 Meg) service may be offered by an ISP either
as a free upgrade or at a charge.
Again, some ISPs - if they are offering free/bulk upgrades - may offer an
opt-out for customers preferring to stay on their slow fixed-rate (up to 2
Meg) IPstream connection. Others may not.
As you may have read, some BT Max connections are also currently suffering
from problems, with customers experiencing reduced/wildly fluctuating
connection speeds and having to wait a couple of weeks for BT's equipment
to "learn" the optimum speed for the connection to work moist efficiently.

Being a sceptical sort, and having a nice steady 512K connection, I've
opted out of both LLU and BT Max for the moment, as the best that I can
expect from the latter is only 1.5 Meg anyway.

Until the teething troubles are sorted, I don't fancy my connection speed
going up and down like a whore's drawers!

George



That's a comprehensive response George (if you don't mind me saying so )
although I'm not sure everyone will understand references to back-end &
backhaul services.

If you've presently got a stable connection I don't think you'd experience
any problems with Max. I realise that looks like a contradiction but I think
you;re likely to get better rather than worse results.

Joe Lee


  #9  
Old September 9th 06, 07:28 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default LLU Question

Eeyore wrote:

George Weston wrote:

Your contract is with the ISP for broadband service (howsoever they provide
it) not with one of the firms to whom they sub-contract out their back-haul
service.
You can only get a fault attended to by BT if it affects your voice
telephone service.


Is that so George ?


Is *what* so ? Two statements from George, both correct AFAIK.

1) contract says you get internet access, but few (or none) state that it
uses service from BT Wholesale to provide that connection, so user has
little option if the ISP makes a decision to switch from BT Wholesale and
use some other network. It's a little like making connections to some US
web server - the actual route depends on various agreements made by
the ISP with other networks, so if one ISP happens to make connection
go via Europe, Russia, and China (which isn't exactly likely, but just an
example) then you still 'get' data but with increased likelihood of delay
and a good chance that some sites would be unreliable. Would you
have any "say" in how the ISP gets that connection to the USA ? No.

2) I'm thinking that George was wrong when writing "BT-the-ISP" but
for internet access problems, your ISP needs to be first contact for
the user. For voice, then BT (or whoever bills you). That's been
the setup since BTW first offered ADSL, and with other firms as
the "link" between the customer and ISP, it now makes much more
sense (I have seen comments about not being allowed to call BTW
but now with other firms instead of BTW, the ISP really is logical as
the only place for the end user to contact if there are problems).

--
Change to DSL Max the way I did: switch ISP http://www.dslmax.info/
  #10  
Old September 9th 06, 07:53 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default LLU Question

I wrote

2) I'm thinking that George was wrong when writing "BT-the-ISP" but
for internet access problems, your ISP needs to be first contact for
the user.


I went back and see he was specific about someone using BT Broadband,
so apologies - George was correct (but life is so much easier when
considering some ISP other than BT, IMHO!).

--
Change to DSL Max the way I did: switch ISP http://www.dslmax.info/
 




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