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Clarity in the LLU Phone and Broadband Market - ** PLEASE REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE **



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 21st 07, 05:46 AM posted to uk.telecom,uk.telecom.broadband,uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.voip
News Reader
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 245
Default Clarity in the LLU Phone and Broadband Market - ** PLEASE REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE **


Hi,

I think someone needs to step in and provide some clarity on LLU both phone
and broadband (whether separately or together).

It is vastly to unclear and unfair presently. People are getting switched to
or are unaware buying LLU services. These can offer differ material in
functionality, flexibility, etc.

Their is also the issue of consequences. It appears that frequently LLU
connection and disconnection separately often incur significant consequences
and potentially penalties (direct or indirect).

With BT now having mandatory 12 month contracts and 75 (I believe it is
currently) minimum exit penalty, switching away from them and trying to get
back (if only to switch via them to another LLU provider) can prove costly,
difficult and more, etc.

Further, migration is not always a clear matter and neither is the issue of
direct provisioning (which I have not heard any of the LLU operators
supporting). Moving house also rears its head where many full LLU operators
seem to be of the mind that you will have to connect your new line initially
with BT (err... yawning chasm of silence and lack of information)... and
then what ... cancel early and pay a big penalty to resume ones LLU service
or is one supposed to stick with BT for a while...? and later resume their
LLU service (particularly as one is likely to be under a minimum contract or
term of service with the LLU provider in question. Particularly on this
matter of moving (not to mention all the other myriad combinations and
issues of the other points above in addition to moving issues specifically -
e.g. see start of this paragraph! - lol), is one then supposed to be forced
into choosing to connect to BT and immediately switch away (back after
moving) to their LLU provider and so pay BT a big penalty; or perhaps they
are supposed to pay for their LLU whilst unable to receive it whilst waiting
for their BT minimum term or penalty level to reduce sufficiently all whilst
not receiving said LLU service (! - lol); or perhaps the former but not have
to pay for the unreceived LLU service instead enjoy the pleasure of waiting
months stuck with BT to avoid the penalty only to have to then (many months
later) resume their original contract period with their LLU provider
(nice! - lol a year later you finish your BT encumbrance only to then have
to complete your enforced remaining period of minimum service with your LLU
provider - whose original tariff you are still on and hence is probably now
quite if not wildly out of date and market price range!)... hmm... all good.

In any event it is a mess.

I understand TalkTalk used to pay the 30 previous BT early cancellation
charge for moving customers but since it is now 75 I am not sure what they
are doing (they seem to be a bit quiet, not heard much from them recently or
had occasion to occur or come across such information).

All these issues are significant, poorly and partially if at all
communicated (to customers, etc.), often seem not to have been worked
through so the customer just falls into various traps and then fire fighting
is required (not that you are assured of getting any fire fighting) on all
sides to try and correct the unplanned situation / work through undetermined
processes (i.e. companies that have not thought this through; don't care;
haven't put systems, policies or processes in place, etc., etc.).

All input and thoughts welcomed. Particularly informed, confirmed and
accurate details of current situations, implementations, etc.

I think the direct provisioning issue (i.e. move into a house with a former
BT line and be able to have an LLU operator directly provision it to their
service - hence theoretically at least at a lower cost or no cost to the
customer vs. the BT activation and penalty scenario, etc.).

Migration issues are also very interesting and important (and unclear) -
e.g. LLU provider to a different LLU provider, or for example BT partial
variant [BT voice and perhaps LLU broadband or BT based broadband when
leaving a full LLU service], etc.)

All these issues demand and need someone's concerted attention. It is to say
the least a bit of a shambles and surprise that no one organised this
beforehand. Their are serious conspicuous absences, pretty much, as far as I
can say, across the board (TalkTalk, Tiscali, BT, etc. don't seem to have
much of a clear plan or idea - leaving the customer to fight their way
through the forest, etc.); OFCOM seems very quite - rather than setting down
procedures and rules and nice simple guides and minimum confirmations [i.e.
guarantees, confirmations, "rights" etc. such as the ability to migrate,
etc. or have this information if migration is not possible etc., clearly and
plainly made available - providing full information about any penalties for
leaving current service, etc., etc. and all consequences, costs, etc.] -
OFCOM or the industry or someone should have set minimum requirements and
provided a nice leaflet explaining or detailing it all, etc. (in colour! -
maybe lol perhaps).


Best wishes,




News Reader


P.s. The whole LLU scene is quite fun and interesting and potentially holds
great prospect. Certainly the value looks very good - with Tiscali, TalkTalk
etc. doing line rental, all UK calls (and international I think) and
broadband, etc. packages for sub 20. But at the moment it seems everyone
has very much been caught napping, with their "pants" down (or management or
someone or several people napping), or just doing a poor job on the customer
side [technically on the operational side, and on their side I think they
{the various operators} are doing pretty well {with the whole LLU thing}]...
but the customer seems to have been badly let down and left out in the
cold... and the (customer seems to be the) answer to all the difficult
questions ("don't tell the customer" [and we probably don't know anyhow],
and then they [the customer] can deal with and pay for it when "it" [the
emergence of difficulties, problems or expenses] happens!).



I think both industry and government (and potentially we could say
"incumbent" / BT - in not seeing to it that this is well thought out and
planned, agreed, etc. focusing on consumer interests or at least minimum
standards and clarity - consumer protection and facilitation, etc.) have
done a (very) poor job on looking out for the consumer here.




  #2  
Old June 21st 07, 12:02 PM posted to uk.telecom,uk.telecom.broadband,uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.voip
Brian A
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,037
Default Clarity in the LLU Phone and Broadband Market - ** PLEASE REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE **

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 03:46:08 GMT, "News Reader"
wrote:


Hi,

I think someone needs to step in and provide some clarity on LLU both phone
and broadband (whether separately or together).

It is vastly to unclear and unfair presently. People are getting switched to
or are unaware buying LLU services. These can offer differ material in
functionality, flexibility, etc.

Yes, I have read about this in regard to Talk Talk
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06...lk_vs_plusnet/

Their is also the issue of consequences. It appears that frequently LLU
connection and disconnection separately often incur significant consequences
and potentially penalties (direct or indirect).

With BT now having mandatory 12 month contracts and 75 (I believe it is
currently) minimum exit penalty, switching away from them and trying to get
back (if only to switch via them to another LLU provider) can prove costly,
difficult and more, etc.

Certainly this wants sorting out. It shouldn't be necessary to start a
contract with BT in order to be able to use an LLU operator.
It should be done via the LLU operator. They should get BT to do the
reconnection not the customer, if, indeed it is necessary to involve
BT at all.
However, if BT, or any other operator, reconnects for free it is only
fair that, if a customer wants to leave their service early, they
should have to pay a proportion of the connection charge, based on the
number of months they have left in their contract. Otherwise people
could get a free connection from an operator then move to another
operator the next day. I think that Ofcom should regulate here though
by setting maximum charges along with other relating matters.

Further, migration is not always a clear matter and neither is the issue of
direct provisioning (which I have not heard any of the LLU operators
supporting). Moving house also rears its head where many full LLU operators
seem to be of the mind that you will have to connect your new line initially
with BT (err... yawning chasm of silence and lack of information)... and
then what ... cancel early and pay a big penalty to resume ones LLU service
or is one supposed to stick with BT for a while...? and later resume their
LLU service (particularly as one is likely to be under a minimum contract or
term of service with the LLU provider in question. Particularly on this
matter of moving (not to mention all the other myriad combinations and
issues of the other points above in addition to moving issues specifically -
e.g. see start of this paragraph! - lol), is one then supposed to be forced
into choosing to connect to BT and immediately switch away (back after
moving) to their LLU provider and so pay BT a big penalty; or perhaps they
are supposed to pay for their LLU whilst unable to receive it whilst waiting
for their BT minimum term or penalty level to reduce sufficiently all whilst
not receiving said LLU service (! - lol); or perhaps the former but not have
to pay for the unreceived LLU service instead enjoy the pleasure of waiting
months stuck with BT to avoid the penalty only to have to then (many months
later) resume their original contract period with their LLU provider
(nice! - lol a year later you finish your BT encumbrance only to then have
to complete your enforced remaining period of minimum service with your LLU
provider - whose original tariff you are still on and hence is probably now
quite if not wildly out of date and market price range!)... hmm... all good.

In any event it is a mess.

I understand TalkTalk used to pay the 30 previous BT early cancellation
charge for moving customers but since it is now 75 I am not sure what they
are doing (they seem to be a bit quiet, not heard much from them recently or
had occasion to occur or come across such information).

All these issues are significant, poorly and partially if at all
communicated (to customers, etc.), often seem not to have been worked
through so the customer just falls into various traps and then fire fighting
is required (not that you are assured of getting any fire fighting) on all
sides to try and correct the unplanned situation / work through undetermined
processes (i.e. companies that have not thought this through; don't care;
haven't put systems, policies or processes in place, etc., etc.).

All input and thoughts welcomed. Particularly informed, confirmed and
accurate details of current situations, implementations, etc.

I think the direct provisioning issue (i.e. move into a house with a former
BT line and be able to have an LLU operator directly provision it to their
service - hence theoretically at least at a lower cost or no cost to the
customer vs. the BT activation and penalty scenario, etc.).

Migration issues are also very interesting and important (and unclear) -
e.g. LLU provider to a different LLU provider, or for example BT partial
variant [BT voice and perhaps LLU broadband or BT based broadband when
leaving a full LLU service], etc.)

All these issues demand and need someone's concerted attention. It is to say
the least a bit of a shambles and surprise that no one organised this
beforehand. Their are serious conspicuous absences, pretty much, as far as I
can say, across the board (TalkTalk, Tiscali, BT, etc. don't seem to have
much of a clear plan or idea - leaving the customer to fight their way
through the forest, etc.); OFCOM seems very quite - rather than setting down
procedures and rules and nice simple guides and minimum confirmations [i.e.
guarantees, confirmations, "rights" etc. such as the ability to migrate,
etc. or have this information if migration is not possible etc., clearly and
plainly made available - providing full information about any penalties for
leaving current service, etc., etc. and all consequences, costs, etc.] -
OFCOM or the industry or someone should have set minimum requirements and
provided a nice leaflet explaining or detailing it all, etc. (in colour! -
maybe lol perhaps).


Best wishes,




News Reader


P.s. The whole LLU scene is quite fun and interesting and potentially holds
great prospect. Certainly the value looks very good - with Tiscali, TalkTalk
etc. doing line rental, all UK calls (and international I think) and
broadband, etc. packages for sub 20. But at the moment it seems everyone
has very much been caught napping, with their "pants" down (or management or
someone or several people napping), or just doing a poor job on the customer
side [technically on the operational side, and on their side I think they
{the various operators} are doing pretty well {with the whole LLU thing}]...
but the customer seems to have been badly let down and left out in the
cold... and the (customer seems to be the) answer to all the difficult
questions ("don't tell the customer" [and we probably don't know anyhow],
and then they [the customer] can deal with and pay for it when "it" [the
emergence of difficulties, problems or expenses] happens!).



I think both industry and government (and potentially we could say
"incumbent" / BT - in not seeing to it that this is well thought out and
planned, agreed, etc. focusing on consumer interests or at least minimum
standards and clarity - consumer protection and facilitation, etc.) have
done a (very) poor job on looking out for the consumer here.




--
Remove 'no_spam_' from email address.

Sign the petition to get High Definition TV via Freeview.
Get your friends to sign too!
Ofcom want to auction off the spectrum needed for Hi Def.
TV.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/High-Definition/
--
  #3  
Old June 21st 07, 02:31 PM posted to uk.telecom,uk.telecom.broadband,uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.voip
George Weston
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 190
Default Clarity in the LLU Phone and Broadband Market - ** PLEASE REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE **


"Brian A" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 03:46:08 GMT, "News Reader"
wrote:


Hi,

I think someone needs to step in and provide some clarity on LLU both
phone
and broadband (whether separately or together).

It is vastly to unclear and unfair presently. People are getting switched
to
or are unaware buying LLU services. These can offer differ material in
functionality, flexibility, etc.

Yes, I have read about this in regard to Talk Talk
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06...lk_vs_plusnet/

Their is also the issue of consequences. It appears that frequently LLU
connection and disconnection separately often incur significant
consequences
and potentially penalties (direct or indirect).

With BT now having mandatory 12 month contracts and 75 (I believe it is
currently) minimum exit penalty, switching away from them and trying to
get
back (if only to switch via them to another LLU provider) can prove
costly,
difficult and more, etc.

Certainly this wants sorting out. It shouldn't be necessary to start a
contract with BT in order to be able to use an LLU operator.
It should be done via the LLU operator. They should get BT to do the
reconnection not the customer, if, indeed it is necessary to involve
BT at all.
However, if BT, or any other operator, reconnects for free it is only
fair that, if a customer wants to leave their service early, they
should have to pay a proportion of the connection charge, based on the
number of months they have left in their contract. Otherwise people
could get a free connection from an operator then move to another
operator the next day. I think that Ofcom should regulate here though
by setting maximum charges along with other relating matters.

Further, migration is not always a clear matter and neither is the issue
of
direct provisioning (which I have not heard any of the LLU operators
supporting). Moving house also rears its head where many full LLU
operators
seem to be of the mind that you will have to connect your new line
initially
with BT (err... yawning chasm of silence and lack of information)... and
then what ... cancel early and pay a big penalty to resume ones LLU
service
or is one supposed to stick with BT for a while...? and later resume their
LLU service (particularly as one is likely to be under a minimum contract
or
term of service with the LLU provider in question. Particularly on this
matter of moving (not to mention all the other myriad combinations and
issues of the other points above in addition to moving issues
specifically -
e.g. see start of this paragraph! - lol), is one then supposed to be
forced
into choosing to connect to BT and immediately switch away (back after
moving) to their LLU provider and so pay BT a big penalty; or perhaps they
are supposed to pay for their LLU whilst unable to receive it whilst
waiting
for their BT minimum term or penalty level to reduce sufficiently all
whilst
not receiving said LLU service (! - lol); or perhaps the former but not
have
to pay for the unreceived LLU service instead enjoy the pleasure of
waiting
months stuck with BT to avoid the penalty only to have to then (many
months
later) resume their original contract period with their LLU provider
(nice! - lol a year later you finish your BT encumbrance only to then have
to complete your enforced remaining period of minimum service with your
LLU
provider - whose original tariff you are still on and hence is probably
now
quite if not wildly out of date and market price range!)... hmm... all
good.

In any event it is a mess.

I understand TalkTalk used to pay the 30 previous BT early cancellation
charge for moving customers but since it is now 75 I am not sure what
they
are doing (they seem to be a bit quiet, not heard much from them recently
or
had occasion to occur or come across such information).

All these issues are significant, poorly and partially if at all
communicated (to customers, etc.), often seem not to have been worked
through so the customer just falls into various traps and then fire
fighting
is required (not that you are assured of getting any fire fighting) on all
sides to try and correct the unplanned situation / work through
undetermined
processes (i.e. companies that have not thought this through; don't care;
haven't put systems, policies or processes in place, etc., etc.).

All input and thoughts welcomed. Particularly informed, confirmed and
accurate details of current situations, implementations, etc.

I think the direct provisioning issue (i.e. move into a house with a
former
BT line and be able to have an LLU operator directly provision it to their
service - hence theoretically at least at a lower cost or no cost to the
customer vs. the BT activation and penalty scenario, etc.).

Migration issues are also very interesting and important (and unclear) -
e.g. LLU provider to a different LLU provider, or for example BT partial
variant [BT voice and perhaps LLU broadband or BT based broadband when
leaving a full LLU service], etc.)

All these issues demand and need someone's concerted attention. It is to
say
the least a bit of a shambles and surprise that no one organised this
beforehand. Their are serious conspicuous absences, pretty much, as far as
I
can say, across the board (TalkTalk, Tiscali, BT, etc. don't seem to have
much of a clear plan or idea - leaving the customer to fight their way
through the forest, etc.); OFCOM seems very quite - rather than setting
down
procedures and rules and nice simple guides and minimum confirmations
[i.e.
guarantees, confirmations, "rights" etc. such as the ability to migrate,
etc. or have this information if migration is not possible etc., clearly
and
plainly made available - providing full information about any penalties
for
leaving current service, etc., etc. and all consequences, costs, etc.] -
OFCOM or the industry or someone should have set minimum requirements and
provided a nice leaflet explaining or detailing it all, etc. (in colour! -
maybe lol perhaps).


Best wishes,




News Reader


P.s. The whole LLU scene is quite fun and interesting and potentially
holds
great prospect. Certainly the value looks very good - with Tiscali,
TalkTalk
etc. doing line rental, all UK calls (and international I think) and
broadband, etc. packages for sub 20. But at the moment it seems everyone
has very much been caught napping, with their "pants" down (or management
or
someone or several people napping), or just doing a poor job on the
customer
side [technically on the operational side, and on their side I think they
{the various operators} are doing pretty well {with the whole LLU
thing}]...
but the customer seems to have been badly let down and left out in the
cold... and the (customer seems to be the) answer to all the difficult
questions ("don't tell the customer" [and we probably don't know anyhow],
and then they [the customer] can deal with and pay for it when "it" [the
emergence of difficulties, problems or expenses] happens!).



I think both industry and government (and potentially we could say
"incumbent" / BT - in not seeing to it that this is well thought out and
planned, agreed, etc. focusing on consumer interests or at least minimum
standards and clarity - consumer protection and facilitation, etc.) have
done a (very) poor job on looking out for the consumer here.




--
Remove 'no_spam_' from email address.

Sign the petition to get High Definition TV via Freeview.
Get your friends to sign too!
Ofcom want to auction off the spectrum needed for Hi Def.
TV.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/High-Definition/


Say what you like about Plusnet - and you probably will! - at least they
offer an opt-out to customers in exchange areas where they have LLU
equipment, so if you don't want their (Tiscali - eugggh!) LLU, you can have
BT ADSLMax instead.
It depends which ISP you're talking about really. The more aggressive, "pile
'em high, sell 'em cheap" ISPs such as Talk Talk, etc. have a vested
financial interest in their customers using their LLU equipment and are not
particularly interested in giving the customer what he/she wants if it
doesn't fit their business model. "Take it or leave it - we're cheap!".
In my long life, I've learned the hard way that there's no such thing as a
free lunch. Always go for quality first but bear in mind price as well - do
a bit of research and avoid those suppliers that shout loud and offer
unbelievably cheap prices. Believe me, you won't get good service!
(Think John Lewis rather than Kwik-Save.)
As an example, I've just fixed our village hall up with broadband service.
I trawled through this and other newsgroups and checked out reviews on
thinkbroadband for good - but reasonably-priced - ISPs.
The best-buys all turned out to be from the same supplier - Brightview, who
operate Waitrose, Globalnet and Madasafish. We went with Globalnet.
I'm still with Plusnet myself, but only because I'm on one of their "legacy"
tariffs, which is not now available to new customers. (Their current tariffs
are all throttled in one way or another but mine isn't. OK - I'm all right,
Jack!)
And no - we're never going to get "proper, all-the-way" LLU for everyone
until/unless some telecoms companies/ISPs lay dedicated cabling/fibre to
premises - it won't happen in my lifetime and probably not in yours.
(Or unless Virgin cable the whole of the UK - that won't happen either!).
In the meantime, we have to put up with partial LLU, BT or Virgin Cable -
that's economics, folks!
:-(
George


  #4  
Old June 21st 07, 04:50 PM posted to uk.telecom,uk.telecom.broadband,uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.voip
PlusNet Support Team
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 995
Default Clarity in the LLU Phone and Broadband Market - ** PLEASE REPLYTO THIS MESSAGE **

George Weston wrote:
snip
Say what you like about Plusnet - and you probably will! - at least they
offer an opt-out to customers in exchange areas where they have LLU
equipment, so if you don't want their (Tiscali - eugggh!) LLU, you can have
BT ADSLMax instead.


George, we are no longer provisioning customers on LLU. I think the
opt-out has been removed too.

Kind Rgds,

--
|Bob Pullen Broadband Solutions for
|Support Home & Business @
|PlusNet plc. www.plus.net
+------ PlusNet - The smarter way to Internet! -----
  #5  
Old June 21st 07, 05:53 PM posted to uk.telecom,uk.telecom.broadband,uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.voip
George Weston
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 190
Default Clarity in the LLU Phone and Broadband Market - ** PLEASE REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE **


"PlusNet Support Team" wrote in message
...
George Weston wrote:
snip
Say what you like about Plusnet - and you probably will! - at least they
offer an opt-out to customers in exchange areas where they have LLU
equipment, so if you don't want their (Tiscali - eugggh!) LLU, you can
have BT ADSLMax instead.


George, we are no longer provisioning customers on LLU. I think the
opt-out has been removed too.

Kind Rgds,

--
|Bob Pullen Broadband Solutions for
|Support Home & Business @
|PlusNet plc. www.plus.net
+------ PlusNet - The smarter way to Internet! -----


So those on LLU are stuck with it then?
:-(
George


  #6  
Old June 22nd 07, 10:19 PM posted to uk.telecom,uk.telecom.broadband,uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.voip
PlusNet Support Team
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 995
Default Clarity in the LLU Phone and Broadband Market - ** PLEASE REPLYTO THIS MESSAGE **

George Weston wrote:

So those on LLU are stuck with it then?


No, there's still a migration path back to IPStream.

Kind Rgds,

--
|Bob Pullen Broadband Solutions for
|Support Home & Business @
|PlusNet plc. www.plus.net
+------ PlusNet - The smarter way to Internet! -----
  #7  
Old June 23rd 07, 11:05 AM posted to uk.telecom,uk.telecom.broadband,uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.voip
PhilT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 391
Default Clarity in the LLU Phone and Broadband Market - ** PLEASE REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE **

On Jun 21, 4:46 am, "News Reader" wrote:

I think someone needs to step in and provide some clarity on LLU both phone
and broadband (whether separately or together).


that's down to the customer surely, Caveat Emptor is a long standing
principle of English Law we don't need any more Quangos or hand
wringers sticking their oar in. The information is there for those who
bother to look.

Phil

  #8  
Old June 23rd 07, 11:04 PM posted to uk.telecom,uk.telecom.broadband,uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.voip
News Reader
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 245
Default Clarity in the LLU Phone and Broadband Market - ** PLEASE REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE **


"PhilT" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jun 21, 4:46 am, "News Reader" wrote:

I think someone needs to step in and provide some clarity on LLU both
phone
and broadband (whether separately or together).


that's down to the customer surely, Caveat Emptor is a long standing
principle of English Law we don't need any more Quangos or hand
wringers sticking their oar in. The information is there for those who
bother to look.

Phil



Hi,


I have to say lol...

Maybe you possess some super-human abilities most of us mere mortals do not.
A vast amount of the information is actually NOT available - for example
from TalkTalk, Tiscalli, etc.

What is provided, for example, in their terms and conditions is often at
odds with what actually happens and what their staff or other materials will
tell you.

In fact, migration information, for one, is again not provided by and large
(e.g. from a full LLU Tiscali LLU or TalkTalk LLU line to another full LLU
provider, or an openreach / BT provided facility, etc.). Further, on
enquiring this, you will find different and frequently "mis" information
(i.e. saying what will sell the product to you irrespective of reality,
knowledge, truth, capability, etc.). You could try writing into the
organisations, but often they will either not reply, provide you surface
information without sufficient factual detail - or the process of getting
the full and accurate information will take a completely unreasonable amount
of time and effort for the lowly consumer trying to choose a telephone
service provider rather than make a Porsche from running a telephone
company.

I think you have a curious perspective on this - a company makes money, a
customer is a single individual - they do not have a marketing, finance,
legal, etc. department at their disposal. Hence, the balance of risk,
responsibility, effort, etc. should be on the organisation which makes money
out of the process.

If a company can get money from you just for poking you in the eye with a
stick they will (or will try).

The reality is that it is stacked massively against the consumer (on or in
these matters - technicalities, details, conditions, etc.). Most lay people
are not lawyers and don't have oceans of time to review detailed, long and
turgid terms and conditions for countless operators to try and fathom this
(and compare and contrast, etc) (even assuming they have the language,
mathematics, etc. skills and are highly competent across these areas - which
most people obviously aren't - again not mentioning the time factor).
Simply! - consumers aren't making money out of it so the onus should be on
the company not the consumer, companies have (for some that are misguided at
least) a vested interest in hiding the details and obscuring potential costs
or penalties whilst front lining in large and bright text the "great deal"
or "offer[ing]", the chips are massively stacked against the consumer as
they, given the current arrangement, would require massive time, resources
and skills to actually have a current factual comparative document (as you
suggest prepared by themselves).


In short - if you think it is fine and fair for companies (that have legal,
accounts, etc. departments - they have the resource and skills which each
lowly consumer does not) to obfuscate, hide, conceal, complicate etc. when
they make money out of the whole process (they are the ones making a Porsche
out of the proceedings not the customer) then I think we probably disagree
on this area.

Your approach leaves only a few simple paths - (i) don't buy anything
because it is too difficult or complicated, etc. to perform an effective
analysis and comparison; (ii) buy stuff without full information and get
overcharged or suffer unforeseen problems, difficulties, expenditure, etc.

I think you, probably like most people (perhaps in the more "influential" or
"fortunate" / "what have you" category), take the more comfortable option
(when you are one of those fortunate enough to have sufficient funds) of
just allowing for or accepting an amount of trouble or extra cost - and
using extra expenditure to solve the problem (i.e. when something goes wrong
etc. - just fork out for conveniences sake to have it sorted).

Not everyone is so lucky - and I don't believe that consumers contributing
to the Porsche fund should get stitched over or be the linking block between
unfair or over complicated terms and processes, etc. and delivery or
outcomes and resolutions (or otherwise) to problems (i.e. that the customer
should be the fall guy when it comes to problems and party that has to do
all the work when getting problems fixed, etc.).


Best wishes,





News Reader


P.s. I wonder from what you said in your original post if you perhaps are
telepathic as well as able to see the future(!) (e.g. to read from the heads
of the staff that actually know how their systems or processes work - and
where no such staff even exist [as such policy or procedure doesn't actually
exist] - the ability to see ahead to what the ultimate engineer actually
does when your eventual difficulty is resolved! - lol]).

P.p.s. As I say - a lot of the information "is not their" - which is exactly
why I raise this point! I would love to see you perform a report for me on a
given terms of reference in this area in anything less than two weeks and it
not be full of holes! (Assuming you are a highly qualified, trained,
competent, etc. "degree level" + and highly competent at that), etc. It
might be more fun to have you guinea pig by setting your a series of
services to source and then switch between - perhaps if you experienced
first hand your thoughts might change (or commission you to produce a report
about how such would work and then have you test the results of your work
with all the "information that is out their" [if you are able to achieve
such - given that a lot of the information is not out their] and compare
your expectations, understandings and plans to what happens in reality!). I
am not making any personal comment to or about you, I just think companies
are held to little, make to much for them to be being held to such little,
and consumers and others to willingly, readily or absently allow this or
don't worry about this, accept an out of proportion penalty or imbalance,
etc.



  #9  
Old July 11th 07, 09:39 AM posted to uk.telecom,uk.telecom.broadband,uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.voip
PhilT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 391
Default Clarity in the LLU Phone and Broadband Market - ** PLEASE REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE **

On 23 Jun, 22:04, "News Reader" wrote:
"PhilT" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Jun 21, 4:46 am, "News Reader" wrote:


I think someone needs to step in and provide some clarity on LLU both
phone
and broadband (whether separately or together).


that's down to the customer surely, Caveat Emptor is a long standing
principle of English Law we don't need any more Quangos or hand
wringers sticking their oar in. The information is there for those who
bother to look.


I have to say lol...

Maybe you possess some super-human abilities most of us mere mortals do not.
A vast amount of the information is actually NOT available - for example
from TalkTalk, Tiscalli, etc.


good example. Half an hour looking at ratings sites, help forums,
reading a newspaper etc would make it crystal clear that these
companies merit no further consideration whatsoever. That's all you
need to know, they are ****. Don't go there.

What is provided, for example, in their terms and conditions is often at
odds with what actually happens and what their staff or other materials will
tell you.


and you think that would change if someone were to "step in and
provide clarity".

Dream on.

This would be the sort of clarity the FSA provided in the mortgage and
pension market, would it ?

I think you have a curious perspective on this - a company makes money, a
customer is a single individual - they do not have a marketing, finance,
legal, etc. department at their disposal. Hence, the balance of risk,
responsibility, effort, etc. should be on the organisation which makes money
out of the process.


I think you have a curious perspective that some 3rd party could
actually be constructive and improve things.

Its a market, like Ebay or a car boot sale. They lay out their wares
and you choose.

If you elect to buy a fairly complex product on the basis of what you
read on the back of a bus then expect problems.


Phil

  #10  
Old July 31st 07, 12:11 AM posted to uk.telecom,uk.telecom.broadband,uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.voip
News Reader
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 245
Default Re-Post Thread: Clarity in the LLU Phone and Broadband Market


** SEE BELOW - Thread reposted with new reply below... to keep thread
somewhere approaching visibility for me (and maybe others) **


"PhilT" wrote in message
ups.com...
On 23 Jun, 22:04, "News Reader" wrote:
"PhilT" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Jun 21, 4:46 am, "News Reader" wrote:


I think someone needs to step in and provide some clarity on LLU both
phone
and broadband (whether separately or together).


that's down to the customer surely, Caveat Emptor is a long standing
principle of English Law we don't need any more Quangos or hand
wringers sticking their oar in. The information is there for those who
bother to look.


I have to say lol...

Maybe you possess some super-human abilities most of us mere mortals do
not.
A vast amount of the information is actually NOT available - for example
from TalkTalk, Tiscalli, etc.


good example. Half an hour looking at ratings sites, help forums,
reading a newspaper etc would make it crystal clear that these
companies merit no further consideration whatsoever. That's all you
need to know, they are ****. Don't go there.

What is provided, for example, in their terms and conditions is often at
odds with what actually happens and what their staff or other materials
will
tell you.


and you think that would change if someone were to "step in and
provide clarity".

Dream on.

This would be the sort of clarity the FSA provided in the mortgage and
pension market, would it ?

I think you have a curious perspective on this - a company makes money, a
customer is a single individual - they do not have a marketing, finance,
legal, etc. department at their disposal. Hence, the balance of risk,
responsibility, effort, etc. should be on the organisation which makes
money
out of the process.


I think you have a curious perspective that some 3rd party could
actually be constructive and improve things.

Its a market, like Ebay or a car boot sale. They lay out their wares
and you choose.

If you elect to buy a fairly complex product on the basis of what you
read on the back of a bus then expect problems.


Phil



Hi Phil,


I essentially agree with you.

On the point of the bus, I agree entirely, however, for those not so naive
or inclined, etc. and who would seek to make further enquiry, they should
not be met with frustration, mis-information, lack of information, etc. It
should be and be required to be openly, accurately, etc. presented.

Yes... I take welcomely, your point about third parties that are actually
able to do anything useful.

It is a sorry but true state of affairs that most third parties seem to be
very poor... very very ... poor. Often they seem either government or
independent / other intermediary or body, to be almost entirely useless or
worse than useless... I don't know that it can necessarily be said to be
true in the case of government bodies, but in the case of the other it often
seems like they see their organisation as existing solely to justify highly
paying their executives. The same may be said to some extent of some
government bodies / implementations as well.

However, some, both government and non-governmental, third parties / bodies
actually do do it well and right and do a fantastic and great job. They are
the extreme minority by and large it seems and are not necessarily
guaranteed to consistently or always do so (or do so so well), or
necessarily on a continuing / ongoing basis.

That said.... ERP rocks (enterprise resource planning)...

.... and when everything eventually gets implemented (it goes without
saying - we mean here, implemented well and correctly) and tied together...
so that such systems are similarly used for enforcement, penalising,
correcting, etc. (on an automated basis)... their will be some very useful
and effective arse kicking's going on / being dished out which will ensure
poor practise cannot occur... it occurs once - correction warning; it occurs
twice - warning and penalty; third time - lock down... (every step has to be
verified, etc. ); their is no fourth time... they either improve back to
stage two or one and keep improving and being better than the rest ( / meet
a high standard) or they, suffering the penalty of tighter scrutiny and
tighter expectations (and ongoing for some considerable time), are shut down
if they do not (immediately) perform. Further explanations / details, etc.
available on request.


Best wishes,



News Reader



 




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