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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

Is it BT and not the ISPs to blame?



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 4th 08, 01:06 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
David
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 498
Default Is it BT and not the ISPs to blame?

Reading the thread 'Speed that the line supports' also in the many BB forums
9 out of 10 posts will be about low Sync. and download speeds. I gather it
is BT that does the Sync. and its always lower than the upto 8 meg or upto
24 meg the ISPs claim in their adverts.
Then the speed you get is 15 / 20 % lower than this number. Both figures
Sync. and speed being blamed on the distance of your home to the BT
exchange. (Sometimes put as the customers fault, lol)
Other things get mentioned joins in BT cable, material cable made of, the
lack of a good BT main socket, bad solder connections even the weather etc.

I just thinking it's BT not the ISPs to blame. If I'm right can't
understand the ISPs sitting back and taking all the blame wondering why they
not jumping on BT.
I would like to talk to BT, properly not via India, but not allowed to as my
'phone is not through BT and my BB not through BT.
To me the whole industry in a mess as operating, blame Mrs Thatcher I
suppose.

--
Regards,
David

Please reply to News Group

  #2  
Old December 4th 08, 02:06 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
George Weston
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 601
Default Is it BT and not the ISPs to blame?


"David" wrote in message
...
Reading the thread 'Speed that the line supports' also in the many BB
forums 9 out of 10 posts will be about low Sync. and download speeds. I
gather it is BT that does the Sync. and its always lower than the upto 8
meg or upto 24 meg the ISPs claim in their adverts.
Then the speed you get is 15 / 20 % lower than this number. Both figures
Sync. and speed being blamed on the distance of your home to the BT
exchange. (Sometimes put as the customers fault, lol)
Other things get mentioned joins in BT cable, material cable made of, the
lack of a good BT main socket, bad solder connections even the weather
etc.

I just thinking it's BT not the ISPs to blame. If I'm right can't
understand the ISPs sitting back and taking all the blame wondering why
they not jumping on BT.
I would like to talk to BT, properly not via India, but not allowed to as
my 'phone is not through BT and my BB not through BT.
To me the whole industry in a mess as operating, blame Mrs Thatcher I
suppose.


I think you summarised the situation correctly!
BT will only talk to your ISP - not you - if you have a broadband problem.
If you have a BT phone line and have a problem with voice
connectivity/quality, yes, they will talk to you - but only for voice
problems (audible noise on line, etc.)
If your phone line isn't with BT, you must go to your chosen phone company.
If your ISP or phone company needs BT to sort out a broadband (or voice)
problem on your line, they must get BT out.
However, BT will charge your ISP / phone company if they can't find a fault
and they will pass the charge on to you.
Many broadband problems are due to other factors, such as routers/modems,
internal house-wiring faults, etc., which BT won't investigate. That's why
your ISP will always get you to do loads of self-test checks before they'll
even think of calling out BT.
With regard to broad band speeds, the phrase "up to" can mean anything, and
will depend on the length and quality of your local line and internal
wiring, etc.
For example, I'm on an "up to 8 meg" system but live a couple of miles from
the BT exchange. My best speed is now about 3 megs and I can't expect more,
due to the factors mentioned above.
In order to achieve even that speed, I've had to buy a new router, upgrade
my phone filters and have also fitted a BT I-plate on my main socket. Before
I did that, I was getting less than 1 meg.
ISPs also vary considerably in the service that they provide - choose a good
one and be prepared to pay for a good tariff package. In general, the better
the ISP, the less you'll have heard of them. Don't go with a mass-advertised
or very cheap ISP or you'll get a crap service!

Life ain't simple!


George



  #3  
Old December 4th 08, 02:11 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
DAB sounds worse than FM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 56
Default Is it BT and not the ISPs to blame?

"David" wrote in message

Reading the thread 'Speed that the line supports' also in the many
BB
forums 9 out of 10 posts will be about low Sync. and download
speeds. I
gather it is BT that does the Sync. and its always lower than the
upto 8
meg or upto 24 meg the ISPs claim in their adverts.
Then the speed you get is 15 / 20 % lower than this number. Both
figures
Sync. and speed being blamed on the distance of your home to the BT
exchange. (Sometimes put as the customers fault, lol)



The distance to the exchange is important, and that's not BT's fault.
The relationship between max download speed and distance to the
exchange is shown in this figu

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g3...sl2-dist07.jpg

The figures for those graphs are theoretical though, and in practice
non-ideal lines from the exchange to the user will reduce the sync to
speeds below what that graph shows.


Other things get mentioned joins in BT cable, material cable made
of, the
lack of a good BT main socket, bad solder connections even the
weather
etc.
I just thinking it's BT not the ISPs to blame.



Why is BT to blame for the distance to the exchange?


If I'm right can't
understand the ISPs sitting back and taking all the blame wondering
why
they not jumping on BT.



BT's plans to roll out superfast broadband to 40% of the population
consists of them reducing the distance to the exchange by extending
the fibre optic cable to roadside telecoms cabinets, and that's going
to cost 1.5 billion. So blaming BT for the current distance to the
exchange is ignoring how expensive it is to reduce that distance...


I would like to talk to BT, properly not via India, but not allowed
to as
my 'phone is not through BT and my BB not through BT.
To me the whole industry in a mess as operating, blame Mrs Thatcher
I
suppose.



Good shout on Mrs T. You could always switch BB provider though - my
ISP (Be*) has an Eastern European call centre, and it's only
marginally better than an Indian one, so if you do change ISP look
into where the call centre is first...



--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

The adoption of DAB was the most incompetent technical
decision ever made in the history of UK broadcasting:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...ion_of_dab.htm


  #4  
Old December 4th 08, 05:33 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
DerekF
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 19
Default Is it BT and not the ISPs to blame?


"DAB sounds worse than FM" wrote in message
...
"David" wrote in message

Reading the thread 'Speed that the line supports' also in the many BB
forums 9 out of 10 posts will be about low Sync. and download speeds. I
gather it is BT that does the Sync. and its always lower than the upto 8
meg or upto 24 meg the ISPs claim in their adverts.
Then the speed you get is 15 / 20 % lower than this number. Both
figures
Sync. and speed being blamed on the distance of your home to the BT
exchange. (Sometimes put as the customers fault, lol)



The distance to the exchange is important, and that's not BT's fault. The
relationship between max download speed and distance to the exchange is
shown in this figu

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g3...sl2-dist07.jpg

The figures for those graphs are theoretical though, and in practice
non-ideal lines from the exchange to the user will reduce the sync to
speeds below what that graph shows.


Other things get mentioned joins in BT cable, material cable made of, the
lack of a good BT main socket, bad solder connections even the weather
etc.
I just thinking it's BT not the ISPs to blame.



Why is BT to blame for the distance to the exchange?


If I'm right can't
understand the ISPs sitting back and taking all the blame wondering why
they not jumping on BT.



BT's plans to roll out superfast broadband to 40% of the population
consists of them reducing the distance to the exchange by extending the
fibre optic cable to roadside telecoms cabinets, and that's going to cost
1.5 billion. So blaming BT for the current distance to the exchange is
ignoring how expensive it is to reduce that distance...


I would like to talk to BT, properly not via India, but not allowed to as
my 'phone is not through BT and my BB not through BT.
To me the whole industry in a mess as operating, blame Mrs Thatcher I
suppose.



Good shout on Mrs T. You could always switch BB provider though - my ISP
(Be*) has an Eastern European call centre, and it's only marginally better
than an Indian one, so if you do change ISP look into where the call
centre is first...



--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

The adoption of DAB was the most incompetent technical
decision ever made in the history of UK broadcasting:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...ion_of_dab.htm

UKOnline have a British call centre that seems to be mainly staffed with
East Europeans:-)
Derek.


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  #5  
Old December 4th 08, 05:38 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Gordon Henderson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 797
Default Is it BT and not the ISPs to blame?

In article ,
David wrote:
Reading the thread 'Speed that the line supports' also in the many BB forums
9 out of 10 posts will be about low Sync. and download speeds. I gather it
is BT that does the Sync. and its always lower than the upto 8 meg or upto
24 meg the ISPs claim in their adverts.


Not always. My ADSL Modem syncs at 8128000 bits per second which is the
maximum possible for the technology I'm using.

Then the speed you get is 15 / 20 % lower than this number.


Again, not always. In addition to the speed the line has synchronised at
there is the "BRAS" profile/speed. This is deliberately set a fraction
lower than the sync. speed, but it's not a large percentage like 15-20. I
am currently on a profile speed of 7150Kbps. This is the maximum possible
for the technology I'm using.

This speed is determined by the equipment in the exchange based on what it
think the maximum speed your line can sustain without errors. It's often
lower than the sync speed because lots of errors have been observed and
(AIUI) the equipment is favouring stability over speed.


Both figures
Sync. and speed being blamed on the distance of your home to the BT
exchange. (Sometimes put as the customers fault, lol)


It's no fault of the customer that BT has sub optimal copper (or
aluminium!)

Other things get mentioned joins in BT cable, material cable made of, the
lack of a good BT main socket, bad solder connections even the weather etc.


Someone has to pay to maintain the copper and upgrade it...

I just thinking it's BT not the ISPs to blame. If I'm right can't
understand the ISPs sitting back and taking all the blame wondering why they
not jumping on BT.




After the physical bit of network from your modem to the exchange, there
is then the BT Wholesale network for your data to pass through - this is
where traditionally the 50:1 and 20:1 contention ratios were imposed -
It's done somewhat differently now (Again AIUI), but the net-effect is
almost the same.

After that it's handed off to the ISP.

Then some ISPs have another contention ratio to apply to the data inside
their own networks before the data gets to the edge points of the ISP
where the ISP peers with other ISPs and so on.

This is a bit of a very broad generalisation, but...

Consider an ISP with 6 fat-pipes into the BT Wholesale network
- that's 6 pipes of 622Mb/sec, or lets say just under a total
bandwidth of 4Gb/sec. What if they only used 1Gb network connections
internally? They're then almost immediately putting a 4:1 contention on
data from BT before it gets passed off to other ISPs.

Say they then just have a single 1GB link to other ISPs...

Hopefully ISPs have better than this internally, or separate traffic
such that these things don't happen, but this all costs money...

I would like to talk to BT, properly not via India, but not allowed to as my
'phone is not through BT and my BB not through BT.
To me the whole industry in a mess as operating, blame Mrs Thatcher I
suppose.


If you like. Personally I blame the greedy shareholders for stifling
innovation by restricting money going back into the companies (including
BT), and the selfish actions of a minority of peer to peer users,
abusing what really is a contended network...

Gordon
  #6  
Old December 4th 08, 06:45 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
DAB sounds worse than FM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 56
Default Is it BT and not the ISPs to blame?

"Gordon Henderson" wrote in message


After the physical bit of network from your modem to the exchange,
there
is then the BT Wholesale network for your data to pass through -
this is
where traditionally the 50:1 and 20:1 contention ratios were
imposed -
It's done somewhat differently now (Again AIUI), but the net-effect
is
almost the same.



How's it done nowadays?


After that it's handed off to the ISP.

Then some ISPs have another contention ratio to apply to the data
inside
their own networks before the data gets to the edge points of the
ISP
where the ISP peers with other ISPs and so on.

This is a bit of a very broad generalisation, but...

Consider an ISP with 6 fat-pipes into the BT Wholesale network
- that's 6 pipes of 622Mb/sec, or lets say just under a total
bandwidth of 4Gb/sec. What if they only used 1Gb network connections
internally? They're then almost immediately putting a 4:1 contention
on
data from BT before it gets passed off to other ISPs.



I don't understand that. Why would they pay the capacity-based charges
for 4 Gbps of bandwidth to BT if they only used 1 Gbps internally?
Surely they'd only pay for 1 Gbps to BT if they could get away with
it?



--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

The adoption of DAB was the most incompetent technical
decision ever made in the history of UK broadcasting:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...ion_of_dab.htm


  #7  
Old December 4th 08, 07:20 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Gordon Henderson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 797
Default Is it BT and not the ISPs to blame?

In article ,
DAB sounds worse than FM wrote:
"Gordon Henderson" wrote in message


After the physical bit of network from your modem to the exchange,
there
is then the BT Wholesale network for your data to pass through -
this is
where traditionally the 50:1 and 20:1 contention ratios were
imposed -
It's done somewhat differently now (Again AIUI), but the net-effect
is
almost the same.


How's it done nowadays?


I think they changed the metrics - but right now I can't find exactly
the right thing from BT, however this:

http://www.griffin.com/news/Broadban...ctsnMyths.aspx

and this:

https://www.zenpartner.com/Downloads...0%20v 1.0.pdf

Seems to talk about "Expected end user Experience" ... From what I recall
seeing, each product has an expected minimum level of traffic avalability.

After that it's handed off to the ISP.

Then some ISPs have another contention ratio to apply to the data
inside
their own networks before the data gets to the edge points of the
ISP
where the ISP peers with other ISPs and so on.

This is a bit of a very broad generalisation, but...

Consider an ISP with 6 fat-pipes into the BT Wholesale network
- that's 6 pipes of 622Mb/sec, or lets say just under a total
bandwidth of 4Gb/sec. What if they only used 1Gb network connections
internally? They're then almost immediately putting a 4:1 contention
on
data from BT before it gets passed off to other ISPs.


I don't understand that. Why would they pay the capacity-based charges
for 4 Gbps of bandwidth to BT if they only used 1 Gbps internally?
Surely they'd only pay for 1 Gbps to BT if they could get away with
it?


They may not - I really don't know (and it's been a very long time since
I worked for an ISP) - you'd have to ask the ISPs, and they might regard
that information as commercially sensitive ;-) I was just expanding the
idea of usage outwards in general...

Gordon
  #8  
Old December 4th 08, 08:09 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Eeyore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,222
Default Is it BT and not the ISPs to blame?



David wrote:

Reading the thread 'Speed that the line supports' also in the many BB forums
9 out of 10 posts will be about low Sync. and download speeds. I gather it
is BT that does the Sync. and its always lower than the upto 8 meg or upto
24 meg the ISPs claim in their adverts.


I have no trouble syncing at up to 8128 kbps.


Then the speed you get is 15 / 20 % lower than this number.


It's called 'overhead'. Suggest you read how ADSL works.


Both figures Sync. and speed being blamed on the distance of your home to the
BT
exchange.


YES, it does affect it. How far are you ?


(Sometimes put as the customers fault, lol)
Other things get mentioned joins in BT cable, material cable made of, the
lack of a good BT main socket, bad solder connections even the weather etc.

I just thinking it's BT not the ISPs to blame. If I'm right can't
understand the ISPs sitting back and taking all the blame wondering why they
not jumping on BT.


Well you're 100% wrong as you would find out if you used a decent ISP like mine
(IDNet). Is Tesco.net still run by NTL (VM) ? No wonder it's bad.

http://www.dslzoneuk.net/isp_ratings.php ( Virgin Media ADSL ) scores 3.25/10.
IDNet scores 9.0 btw.

Graham

  #9  
Old December 4th 08, 08:27 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
alexd
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,765
Default Is it BT and not the ISPs to blame?

Gordon Henderson wrote:

Consider an ISP with 6 fat-pipes into the BT Wholesale network
- that's 6 pipes of 622Mb/sec, or lets say just under a total
bandwidth of 4Gb/sec. What if they only used 1Gb network connections
internally? They're then almost immediately putting a 4:1 contention on
data from BT before it gets passed off to other ISPs.

Say they then just have a single 1GB link to other ISPs...


That's unlikely, because transit [or in some cases peering] to other ISPs is
a lot cheaper than a BT Central, especially if you have your Central
terminate in a colo, so it would very much be a waste of money. Of course a
BT Central is a lot cheaper than laying a connection from every single
exchange in the country back to your colo.

--
http://ale.cx/ (AIM:troffasky) )
20:23:06 up 1 day, 1:05, 1 user, load average: 0.10, 0.08, 0.05
They call me titless because I have no tits

  #10  
Old December 4th 08, 09:26 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
David
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 498
Default Is it BT and not the ISPs to blame?



"Eeyore" wrote in message

Well you're 100% wrong as you would find out if you used a decent ISP like
mine
(IDNet). Is Tesco.net still run by NTL (VM) ? No wonder it's bad.

http://www.dslzoneuk.net/isp_ratings.php ( Virgin Media ADSL ) scores
3.25/10.
IDNet scores 9.0 btw.


I'm not with Tesco or VM.
But Tesco 'ordinary' BB is excellent, I got non of this slowing down or
limiting of downloads that these faster systems do. I was on 1 meg and the
Speed testers said I was getting 1.1 meg.

--
Regards,
David

Please reply to News Group
They not do LLU.


 




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