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uk.telecom.voip (UK VOIP) (uk.telecom.voip) Discussion of topics relevant to packet based voice technologies including Voice over IP (VoIP), Fax over IP (FoIP), Voice over Frame Relay (VoFR), Voice over Broadband (VoB) and Voice on the Net (VoN) as well as service providers, hardware and software for use with these technologies. Advertising is not allowed.

Business SIP trunk experience both bad and good



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 19th 09, 04:02 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
[email protected]
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Posts: 2
Default Business SIP trunk experience both bad and good

Looking for quality SIP trunk for business. We have a callmanager
environment and with PRIs. We are looking into cutting cost for
outbound calls. We are currently testing voip.co.uk and would like to
know the good and bad experience. If anyone is currently using SIP
trunk for business or looking for a provider, what are your experience
so far and what do you recommend?

Tony Ton
  #3  
Old February 19th 09, 08:10 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
[email protected]
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Posts: 2
Default Business SIP trunk experience both bad and good

On Feb 19, 10:54*am, Tim wrote:
wrote:
Looking for quality SIP trunk for business. We have a callmanager
environment and with PRIs. We are looking into cutting cost for
outbound calls. We are currently testing voip.co.uk and would like to
know the good and bad experience. If anyone is currently using SIP
trunk for business or looking for a provider, what are your experience
so far and what do you recommend?


We've been entirely sip trunked in our business for 2 years now, and
we've never looked back.

Providers to look at:

voipunlimited
gradwell
aql
voipfone

If you are sharing the SIP trunk internet connection with other users,
then you need something to priortise the VoIP or you will get bad call
quality.

Tim


Thanks for the info Tim, we would hope to run a dedicated lease line
to the provider is possible. Does any of these provider offer that?
  #5  
Old February 20th 09, 02:09 AM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Tim
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Posts: 385
Default Business SIP trunk experience both bad and good

Tim wrote:


I wouldn't want to be tied to a provider too. I'd buy the leased line
separately to the SIP connection. Me being me, I'd also buy the leased
line to my own rack space in a friendly data centre, so I can pick and
choose my internet connectivity provider.



I have 1 exception to this rule.

Most telcos have second sites (outside London). If you need loads of
channels, then a direct fibre into one of their POP sites could be very
economical.


Tell us where you are and I can make suggestions.


Tim
  #6  
Old February 20th 09, 10:08 AM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Gordon Henderson
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Posts: 797
Default Business SIP trunk experience both bad and good

In article ,
Tim wrote:
wrote:
Thanks for the info Tim, we would hope to run a dedicated lease line
to the provider is possible. Does any of these provider offer that?



You could ask voip.co.uk

A leased line would probably work out more than ISDN30 unless you have
lots and lots of channels.

At about 2-7 channels, ADSL + SIP trunks is cheaper.

Above this partial PRI probably better.

Then SIP trunks become cheaper higher up again.


I did some benchmarks of 20 concurrent calls over a business-class
ADSL line recently (830Kb upstream), as I've a customer (a small call
centre) looking at moving to VoIP with 20 seats - that required using G729
though. In theory, you can squeeze 34 G729 SIP calls over an ADSL line
with 830Kb/sec upload speed, (or close to 100 using IAX rather than SIP)
however my concern then would be the (ADSL) equipments ability to handle
the packet load - 50 pps each way per call.

I wouldn't want to be tied to a provider too. I'd buy the leased line
separately to the SIP connection. Me being me, I'd also buy the leased
line to my own rack space in a friendly data centre, so I can pick and
choose my internet connectivity provider.


You may well be tied to a provider if you're registering new numbers
and taking incoming calls, and it might be wise to find out where their
SIP media proxy devices are - some ITSPs may have them distributed in
different data centres and be using load balancing methods to spread
load and increase redundancy... You need to talk directly to the ITSPs
and give them an idea of your incoming and outgoing call requirements.

Gradwell and voipfone can both provide DSL circuits directly onto their
networks.


I always wondered about this, but don't have the capacity to do more
investigations right now (nor the need at present). As I see it, you're
either using capacity of an LLU network operator where you can negotiate
with them the contentions, etc. or at the mercy of the BT Wholesale
network as far as I can see it - not sure how to influence the latter
other than pay for elevated service.

You should also be aware that ethernet circuits are about to have a
price shakeup, due to the way BT price things changing.

Check out:

http://www.aaisp.net.uk/news-2009-01-ethernet.html

Prices reasonable on the locations I've had quotes for.


There are also deals to be had on traditional 2Mb lines point to point
rather than carrying Internet traffic, (especially if you can go with
someone like Telewest/NTL rather than BT) but if you're doing that,
you might look at running TDM over them rather than VoIP! (30 channels
uncompressed vs. 20) A lot is going to depend on where you are - in a
city with lots of competing operators or in the sticks with only BT )-:

Gordon
  #7  
Old February 20th 09, 02:58 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Tim
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Posts: 385
Default Business SIP trunk experience both bad and good

Gordon Henderson wrote:
I did some benchmarks of 20 concurrent calls over a business-class
ADSL line recently (830Kb upstream), as I've a customer (a small call
centre) looking at moving to VoIP with 20 seats - that required using G729
though. In theory, you can squeeze 34 G729 SIP calls over an ADSL line
with 830Kb/sec upload speed, (or close to 100 using IAX rather than SIP)
however my concern then would be the (ADSL) equipments ability to handle
the packet load - 50 pps each way per call.



pps is significant.

It is a few years since i've had pps issues though.


I wouldn't use G.729 in a callcentre - I reckon it will lead to higher
staff turnover because of making people's brains work harder to work out
what is being said.

You may well be tied to a provider if you're registering new numbers
and taking incoming calls, and it might be wise to find out where their
SIP media proxy devices are - some ITSPs may have them distributed in
different data centres and be using load balancing methods to spread
load and increase redundancy... You need to talk directly to the ITSPs
and give them an idea of your incoming and outgoing call requirements.


But choice of outbound provider (which is what costs money) is always a
good thing.

I always wondered about this, but don't have the capacity to do more
investigations right now (nor the need at present). As I see it, you're
either using capacity of an LLU network operator where you can negotiate
with them the contentions, etc. or at the mercy of the BT Wholesale
network as far as I can see it - not sure how to influence the latter
other than pay for elevated service.


The BT wholesale network is actually pretty good on whole.

LLU will give more upstream bandwidth as they support annexM.

Tim
  #8  
Old February 20th 09, 03:45 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Gordon Henderson
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Posts: 797
Default Business SIP trunk experience both bad and good

In article ,
Tim wrote:
Gordon Henderson wrote:
I did some benchmarks of 20 concurrent calls over a business-class
ADSL line recently (830Kb upstream), as I've a customer (a small call
centre) looking at moving to VoIP with 20 seats - that required using G729
though. In theory, you can squeeze 34 G729 SIP calls over an ADSL line
with 830Kb/sec upload speed, (or close to 100 using IAX rather than SIP)
however my concern then would be the (ADSL) equipments ability to handle
the packet load - 50 pps each way per call.


pps is significant.

It is a few years since i've had pps issues though.


Hopefully modern routers, etc. are more than capable these days. I've
had recent issues with Wi-Fi and other wireless links, but I really
don't recomend those at all!

I wouldn't use G.729 in a callcentre - I reckon it will lead to higher
staff turnover because of making people's brains work harder to work out
what is being said.


I have quite a lot of people using G729 right now without any issues. Most
people I've tried it on can't tell the difference - I couldn't initially,
but I can now - probably because I know what I'm listening for..

The biggest issue has been when calling abroad, then you really don't
know what's going on once the call's left you and transcoding and
re-transcoding is what causes issues )-: I pass calls through end to
end in G729 without doing transcoding myself.

I always wondered about this, but don't have the capacity to do more
investigations right now (nor the need at present). As I see it, you're
either using capacity of an LLU network operator where you can negotiate
with them the contentions, etc. or at the mercy of the BT Wholesale
network as far as I can see it - not sure how to influence the latter
other than pay for elevated service.


The BT wholesale network is actually pretty good on whole.


I think so too - especially if you spend a few more and go with a
business service. Stark contrast to the whingers and whiners who complain
about being throttled because they've downloaded more music/video this
week than they can watch in a lifetime...

LLU will give more upstream bandwidth as they support annexM.


I have one customer on Entanet ADSL2+ and they get just over 1Mb/sec
upstream and they're very happy (small video production house, so
uplaoding their videos is now much much faster!)

Gordon
  #9  
Old February 20th 09, 04:27 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Bodincus
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Posts: 22
Default Business SIP trunk experience both bad and good

Gordon Henderson wrote:
In article ,
Tim wrote:
Gordon Henderson wrote:
I did some benchmarks of 20 concurrent calls over a business-class
ADSL line recently (830Kb upstream), as I've a customer (a small call
centre) looking at moving to VoIP with 20 seats - that required using G729
though. In theory, you can squeeze 34 G729 SIP calls over an ADSL line
with 830Kb/sec upload speed, (or close to 100 using IAX rather than SIP)
however my concern then would be the (ADSL) equipments ability to handle
the packet load - 50 pps each way per call.

pps is significant.

It is a few years since i've had pps issues though.


Hopefully modern routers, etc. are more than capable these days. I've
had recent issues with Wi-Fi and other wireless links, but I really
don't recomend those at all!


If pps is an issue, change the packet size to 60 msecs. It's a multiple
of 20 and 30, so all codecs can be used (g723 is on 30 msecs chunks, all
others on 20).

I wouldn't use G.729 in a callcentre - I reckon it will lead to higher
staff turnover because of making people's brains work harder to work out
what is being said.


I have quite a lot of people using G729 right now without any issues. Most
people I've tried it on can't tell the difference - I couldn't initially,
but I can now - probably because I know what I'm listening for..

The biggest issue has been when calling abroad, then you really don't
know what's going on once the call's left you and transcoding and
re-transcoding is what causes issues )-: I pass calls through end to
end in G729 without doing transcoding myself.


Seconded, good quality and efficient g729 codecs are a boon anyhow,
squeezing more bangs for your bucks.
Most of the good brands endpoints (SNOM, Siemens, Cisco et al) have
pretty good support for g729. Users can't tell the difference between
G711 and G729, also a large chunk of the conversations now are to
mobiles - GSM codec quality anyone?

LLU will give more upstream bandwidth as they support annexM.


I have one customer on Entanet ADSL2+ and they get just over 1Mb/sec
upstream and they're very happy (small video production house, so
uplaoding their videos is now much much faster!)


Far more important than that, it's how the ADSL is configured: FAST or
INTERLEAVE.
You want FAST. (http://www.dslzoneuk.net/adslmax_explained.php)
We're on Entanet too, quite happy with a FAST ADSL with 832 Kbps uplink,
8128 downlink. 780 Meters from the exchange as the crow flies.

--
Bodincus - The Y2K Druid
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Law 42 on computing: Anything that could go [email protected]^S~ 00
$: Access Violation - Core dumped
  #10  
Old February 21st 09, 10:21 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
David Knell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default Business SIP trunk experience both bad and good

On 20 Feb, 15:27, Bodincus wrote:
Seconded, good quality and efficient g729 codecs are a boon anyhow,
squeezing more bangs for your bucks.
Most of the good brands endpoints (SNOM, Siemens, Cisco et al) have
pretty good support for g729. Users can't tell the difference between
G711 and G729, also a large chunk of the conversations now are to
mobiles - GSM codec quality anyone?


Users can tell the difference between a call that's been compressed
with both G.729 and then the GSM codec and one that's been
compressed with the GSM codec alone. We run various bits of
wholesale traffic, and the drop in average call durations to mobiles
when we tried moving from G.711 to G.729 in our network was quite
startling.

--Dave
 




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