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uk.telecom.voip (UK VOIP) (uk.telecom.voip) Discussion of topics relevant to packet based voice technologies including Voice over IP (VoIP), Fax over IP (FoIP), Voice over Frame Relay (VoFR), Voice over Broadband (VoB) and Voice on the Net (VoN) as well as service providers, hardware and software for use with these technologies. Advertising is not allowed.

SIP peering and call costs



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 25th 09, 09:48 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Dave Higton
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Posts: 77
Default SIP peering and call costs

I'm struggling to see who saves money by using VoIP.

I have an account with Sipgate. However, there appear to be very
few networks that Sipgate partner with, therefore it's very hard
to get free calls. (Compare this with BT, with whom I get unlimited
free calls to UK land lines evenings and weekends, which is when
most of my calls are made.) Is it really true that calls from
Sipgate to e.g. voiptalk and voipcheap are charged?

How would any VoIP provider know that a call to a telephone number
is to another VoIP provider, unless the caller dials a prefix
specific to the called provider?

Dave
  #2  
Old May 26th 09, 06:03 AM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Jono
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Posts: 1,539
Default SIP peering and call costs

Dave Higton submitted this idea :
I'm struggling to see who saves money by using VoIP.

I have an account with Sipgate. However, there appear to be very
few networks that Sipgate partner with, therefore it's very hard
to get free calls. (Compare this with BT, with whom I get unlimited
free calls to UK land lines evenings and weekends, which is when
most of my calls are made.) Is it really true that calls from
Sipgate to e.g. voiptalk and voipcheap are charged?


It is true..

How would any VoIP provider know that a call to a telephone number
is to another VoIP provider, unless the caller dials a prefix
specific to the called provider?


They wouldn't.

VoIP provides features & flexibility. If you're smart about its
implementation, you can save cost too.


  #3  
Old May 26th 09, 08:35 AM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Andy Burns
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Posts: 122
Default SIP peering and call costs

Jono wrote:

Dave Higton submitted this idea :

I'm struggling to see who saves money by using VoIP.
How would any VoIP provider know that a call to a telephone number


They wouldn't.


Unless they all vote for christmas and start populating and querying the
e164.arpa DNS zone.

  #4  
Old May 26th 09, 09:15 AM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Gordon Henderson
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Posts: 797
Default SIP peering and call costs

In article ,
Dave Higton wrote:
I'm struggling to see who saves money by using VoIP.


Who says VoIP is about saving money? I see it more about choice and
flexability than a money saving excercise.

I have an account with Sipgate. However, there appear to be very
few networks that Sipgate partner with, therefore it's very hard
to get free calls. (Compare this with BT, with whom I get unlimited
free calls to UK land lines evenings and weekends, which is when
most of my calls are made.) Is it really true that calls from
Sipgate to e.g. voiptalk and voipcheap are charged?


Sure. Why shouldn't they be charged? Unles sipgate has some sort of
peering agreement with those networks, and vice-versa, then sipgate will
have to default back to the PSTN and that costs money.

And even if sipgate is peering with other networks, sipgate still has to
maintain servers, and Internet connectivity, etc. to enable that peering
to take place, and someone has to pay for them.

The same goes for the neutral providers (ones with no direct PSTN
access) - mysipswitch, sipbroker, etc. They all need to provide a server
somewhere to take your registration details - who pays for that? FWD
(Free World Dialup) did this for some years ... Then went comemrcial -
how many of us paid for continued service with FWD? I didn't...

How would any VoIP provider know that a call to a telephone number
is to another VoIP provider, unless the caller dials a prefix
specific to the called provider?


They generally don't. If you want phone number to VoIP mapping lookup
enum, however I'm not personally convinced enum is good for various
reasons - mostly to do with spam.

I think you're also forgetting about the business case - most telcos
charge businesses a lot more than residential customers and provide a
better support service (or are supposed to), so if they have the choice
of VoIP then they can use that to save money - especially when bridging
offices together. A lot of my customers are using VoIP to enable remote
working, connect satelite offices to HQ, (2 or 3 phones remote to a
central PBX), and even main offices together (bigger PBX in each office),
that sort of thing. Think in terms of "internal" calls - you'd get the
same effect if all your friends & family were on the same VoIP provider.

What I'd suggest is rather than think about saving money, think of
it as added flexability in your calls. So not only do you have the
prefix diallers, etc. you now have another way to make calls - by VoIP,
and just as important, to recieve calls no matter where you are... (with
a suitable broadband connection!)

Sadly, the promise of free calls for all is just not going to happen. I
don't personally think enum is going to take off in a major way either -
enum costs money - a quick google found me a site willing to register
my details for 250 a year plus a small fee per number... If you have
control of your own DNS, then you can control it yourself to some extent -
eg. publish something like , but if I were
to do that then I'd need to make that PBX/switch that dingdong.drogon.net
pointed to accept anonymous calls - hello spammers....

The closest thing right now to global free calls is probably Skype - and
it looks now like they're desperate to get SIP compatability... Wonder
why?

Gordon

  #5  
Old May 26th 09, 11:26 AM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Theo Markettos
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Posts: 539
Default SIP peering and call costs

Gordon Henderson wrote:
In article ,
Dave Higton wrote:
I'm struggling to see who saves money by using VoIP.


Who says VoIP is about saving money? I see it more about choice and
flexability than a money saving excercise.


I think VOIP is very much about saving money, but it's mostly in the backend
not the frontend. In the backend, that means dumping the traditional
international carriers (BT, AT&T etc) and running over 'free' IP.

In effect an international call has reduced to the price of a national call
in the destination country. Just compare the prices charged by BT a few
years ago to the prices available at dialthrough telcos.

So you can get many of the advantages of VOIP without every touching VOIP
kit.

Where you don't win a huge amount is using VOIP for the 'first mile'. It's
only of interest for the flexibility reasons that don't fit in with
traditional telcos' business models (eg if you want 10 lines BT want 10
installation fees and 10 monthly fees).

Saving money on the 'last mile' (at the callee's end) is the only goal that
hasn't been tackled very well, and could do with more work. But it doesn't
mean VOIP hasn't made a difference in the big picture.

Theo
  #6  
Old May 26th 09, 11:38 AM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Theo Markettos
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Posts: 539
Default SIP peering and call costs

Gordon Henderson wrote:
The same goes for the neutral providers (ones with no direct PSTN
access) - mysipswitch, sipbroker, etc. They all need to provide a server
somewhere to take your registration details - who pays for that? FWD
(Free World Dialup) did this for some years ... Then went comemrcial -
how many of us paid for continued service with FWD? I didn't...


I think the difference is that most charging today is on a per-minute basis.
For end-to-end VOIP calls might be beneficial to move to a flat-rate basis,
because actually the work is mostly about keeping the database and doesn't
vary too much with the volume of calls (assuming voice packets are end-end
and not going via the broker).

The problem is that there's then a flat market. If you make two calls a
month or a million calls a month, the work involved is essentially the same.
Not such a good deal to encourage those people who make two calls a month.
But perhaps charging on a per-call basis is still better than per-minute.

They generally don't. If you want phone number to VoIP mapping lookup
enum, however I'm not personally convinced enum is good for various
reasons - mostly to do with spam.


Yes, that's a big problem. And no obvious ways around it.
(What do Skype do? Other than having a tight grip on their network?)

The closest thing right now to global free calls is probably Skype - and
it looks now like they're desperate to get SIP compatability... Wonder
why?


Wonder what'll happen when they have a public SIP-Skype gateway... hello
spammers?

Theo
  #7  
Old May 26th 09, 12:06 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Brian A
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Posts: 1,037
Default SIP peering and call costs

On Mon, 25 May 2009 21:48:03 +0100, Dave Higton wrote:

I'm struggling to see who saves money by using VoIP.

I have an account with Sipgate. However, there appear to be very few
networks that Sipgate partner with, therefore it's very hard to get free
calls.

No it isn't hard to get free calls or to make them.
With voip you don't need to receive calls on the same network that you
make outgoing calls. Further, you can have more than one incoming number
if you use Voxalot, PBXes or mySIPswitch for example. To make calls to
'open' networks just use Sipbroker.
In practical terms you can do this (if you have a Linksys/Sipura ATA):-
Add | to your dial plan to enable you to call
any open network by dialling #1 followed by the Sipbroker (.com)
appropriate access code (no need to add a * as it is included for you in
the dial plan) and then the SIP number you wish to call. No need to make
any sign up with Sipbroker - just use it. Check out the Sipbroker site
for 'open' networks.
So, in summary, voip is very flexible. You just need to look for a
solution for what you want to do and, with a bit of work, it is usually
possible to achieve it.



  #8  
Old May 26th 09, 03:22 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Chris Davies
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Posts: 444
Default SIP peering and call costs

Dave Higton wrote:
I'm struggling to see who saves money by using VoIP.


I do...


I have an account with Sipgate. However, there appear to be very
few networks that Sipgate partner with, therefore it's very hard
to get free calls.


Ah. You're using Sipgate for outbound calls? There's your problem. I'd
suggest you use sipgate for inbound calls and something like smslisto.com
for your outbound. Configure it right and you get outbound CLI that
matches your (inbound) Sipgate number. Configure it better and you get
a small choice of CLIs (that you own), e.g. mobile, home, office...


Is it really true that calls from Sipgate to e.g. voiptalk and voipcheap
are charged?


Without a peering arrangement (and a properly utilised enum.arpa /
enum.org) there's no way Sipgate can know how to route such calls except
via the PSTN.


How would any VoIP provider know that a call to a telephone number
is to another VoIP provider, unless the caller dials a prefix
specific to the called provider?


See enum.arpa and/or enum.org

Chris
  #9  
Old May 26th 09, 03:47 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Chris Davies
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Posts: 444
Default SIP peering and call costs

Chris Davies wrote:
Without a peering arrangement (and a properly utilised enum.arpa /
enum.org) there's no way Sipgate can know how to route such calls [...]


Actually I didn't mean enum.org at all - I intended to write
e164.org. Silly mistake really...

Chris
  #10  
Old May 26th 09, 07:29 PM posted to uk.telecom.voip
Jono
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Posts: 1,539
Default SIP peering and call costs

Andy Burns explained :
Jono wrote:

Dave Higton submitted this idea :

I'm struggling to see who saves money by using VoIP.
How would any VoIP provider know that a call to a telephone number


They wouldn't.


Unless they all vote for christmas and start populating and querying the
e164.arpa DNS zone.


Quite...though wouldn't that be the device doing that, not Sipgate?


 




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