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uk.comp.home-networking (UK home networking) (uk.comp.home-networking) Discussion of all aspects of computer networking in the home, regardless of the platforms, software, topologies and protocols used. Examples of topics include recommendations for hardware or suppliers (e.g. NICs and cabling), protocols, servers, and specific network software. Advertising is not allowed.

Boundary between BT and householder responsibility for phone wiring



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 18th 10, 11:37 AM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom
Mortimer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 342
Default Boundary between BT and householder responsibility for phone wiring

As I understand it, for a house with a two-part BT master socket, the
boundary between BT and householder responsibility for line faults that
affect broadband is the master socket: *even if BT rather than the
householder has installed an extension*, that extension is the householder's
responsibility.

But what is the situation if there no discernable master socket? The other
day I was called to investigate a broadband fault (sudden total loss of DSL
carrier (*)) at recently-built house which had non-BT sockets installed by
the builder and one BT-labelled socket which was a single-part, not
two-part, socket that did not have a means of disconnecting the rest of the
house wiring. I walked all round the outside of the house but there was no
grey conduit taking the BT cable out of the ground and feeding it into the
house.

And what if the phone drop wire from the overhead line comes into an
old-style GPO Telephones grey rectangular box which then feeds several
cables around the house, but again with no two-part BT master socket
anywhere?


(*) When the ISP got BT to investigate, they found that the fault was in a
junction box in the street, so definitely not the householder's
responsibility, but had it not been so, I'm not sure who would have paid if
the fault had been before that BT-labelled non-master socket.

  #2  
Old June 18th 10, 12:25 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom
George Weston
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 467
Default Boundary between BT and householder responsibility for phonewiring

On 18/06/2010 10:37, Mortimer wrote:
As I understand it, for a house with a two-part BT master socket, the
boundary between BT and householder responsibility for line faults that
affect broadband is the master socket: *even if BT rather than the
householder has installed an extension*, that extension is the
householder's responsibility.

But what is the situation if there no discernable master socket? The
other day I was called to investigate a broadband fault (sudden total
loss of DSL carrier (*)) at recently-built house which had non-BT
sockets installed by the builder and one BT-labelled socket which was a
single-part, not two-part, socket that did not have a means of
disconnecting the rest of the house wiring. I walked all round the
outside of the house but there was no grey conduit taking the BT cable
out of the ground and feeding it into the house.

And what if the phone drop wire from the overhead line comes into an
old-style GPO Telephones grey rectangular box which then feeds several
cables around the house, but again with no two-part BT master socket
anywhere?


(*) When the ISP got BT to investigate, they found that the fault was in
a junction box in the street, so definitely not the householder's
responsibility, but had it not been so, I'm not sure who would have paid
if the fault had been before that BT-labelled non-master socket.


I would say that somebody has been a bit naughty - perhaps the builder?
As you say, this is a new house, so presumably there was no telephone
service there beforehand?
If that was the case, the owner (or the builder) should have ordered a
new line from BT and the Openreach engineer would have installed it
properly, with the correct master socket.
What could perhaps have happened was that an existing line might have
been diverted by the builder from either his site hut or perhaps from a
previous building on the site, and nobody told BT?
In any case, the situation needs putting right, so the owner of the new
house should tell BT about the problem and get them to fix it.

George
  #3  
Old June 18th 10, 06:40 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom
Denis McMahon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 26
Default Boundary between BT and householder responsibility for phonewiring

On 18/06/10 11:25, George Weston wrote:
On 18/06/2010 10:37, Mortimer wrote:
As I understand it, for a house with a two-part BT master socket, the
boundary between BT and householder responsibility for line faults that
affect broadband is the master socket: *even if BT rather than the
householder has installed an extension*, that extension is the
householder's responsibility.

But what is the situation if there no discernable master socket? The
other day I was called to investigate a broadband fault (sudden total
loss of DSL carrier (*)) at recently-built house which had non-BT
sockets installed by the builder and one BT-labelled socket which was a
single-part, not two-part, socket that did not have a means of
disconnecting the rest of the house wiring. I walked all round the
outside of the house but there was no grey conduit taking the BT cable
out of the ground and feeding it into the house.

And what if the phone drop wire from the overhead line comes into an
old-style GPO Telephones grey rectangular box which then feeds several
cables around the house, but again with no two-part BT master socket
anywhere?


(*) When the ISP got BT to investigate, they found that the fault was in
a junction box in the street, so definitely not the householder's
responsibility, but had it not been so, I'm not sure who would have paid
if the fault had been before that BT-labelled non-master socket.


I would say that somebody has been a bit naughty - perhaps the builder?
As you say, this is a new house, so presumably there was no telephone
service there beforehand?
If that was the case, the owner (or the builder) should have ordered a
new line from BT and the Openreach engineer would have installed it
properly, with the correct master socket.
What could perhaps have happened was that an existing line might have
been diverted by the builder from either his site hut or perhaps from a
previous building on the site, and nobody told BT?
In any case, the situation needs putting right, so the owner of the new
house should tell BT about the problem and get them to fix it.


BT will probably (almost certainly attempt to) charge the occupier for
this. I think standard BT "regularisation" is about GBP 166.30, but I
could be wrong. I have heard that if you supply your own NTE5 (cost
approx GBP 5.00 on e-bay) then they only charge you GBP 115.00 or so for
the call out, not sure on that though.

You need to go back one step further. When the occupier originally had
the service connected, did they get charged a one-off installation
charge by BT? If so, then they should have had an engineer visit, and
the engineer should have checked the installation was OK.

I moved into a pre-wired new build about 18 months ago, and
unfortunately ordered BT service just before their "no install fees" was
announced. The pre-installed split panel master socket is a BT openreach
one, but I don't know if the internal extensions were wired by a BT
engineer / contractor or the builder's contract electricians. I assume,
however, that the cabling from the master back to the street cab was
probably installed by Openreach during the building process. It's a
block of flats, I imagine there's a 50 pair (47 flats) coming into it
from the nearest street cab and terminating in a utility room somewhere.

It's also possible that the builder / contractor fitted the master
sockets and wired them back to the Utility room in the block. I have no
actual knowledge of the arrangements that were made between the builder
and BT.

My strategy for the OP would be to fit an NTE5 myself, and if BT ever
commented on it being an unbranded one in future, state that my
understanding was that the installation was prepared by the builder for
BT to connect the cable to during the build. Obviously I'm confident in
my ability to install an NTE5 correctly.

Note that this approach won't work on installations with the lozenge
style connection box, because those haven't been used on new lines where
NTE5s were fitted. The method of converting dropwire to internal cable
when needed where NTE5s are used seems to be a small white box (67mm
square pattress, plain cover) where the dropwire enters the property
with connection from dropwire to cw1308 made by jelly beans.

Lozenge termination of dropwire should have been converted to old style
LJU/1 master sockets. In these installations, customers were only
allowed to plug in to the master socket, not to hard wire, but if a
premises with BT wired extensions was converted to LJU master, BT wired
extensions direct from the master - in these installations none of the
wiring could be touched by customers.

It would actually make sense in such installations, provided there was
enough slack in the tails at the terminations, to replace the master
socket with an NTE5, but as I've said, BT engineers discovering non
standard NTE5s in such situations will know that it's very unlikely that
the work was done officially, and if there's a fault that can be put
down to the NTE5 installation in future, that's going to be expensive
for the customer.

Rgds

Denis McMahon
  #4  
Old June 18th 10, 08:44 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom
Paulg0
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 65
Default Boundary between BT and householder responsibility for phone wiring

"Mortimer" wrote in message
.. .
As I understand it, for a house with a two-part BT master socket, the
boundary between BT and householder responsibility for line faults that
affect broadband is the master socket: *even if BT rather than the
householder has installed an extension*, that extension is the
householder's responsibility.

But what is the situation if there no discernable master socket? The other
day I was called to investigate a broadband fault (sudden total loss of
DSL carrier (*)) at recently-built house which had non-BT sockets
installed by the builder and one BT-labelled socket which was a
single-part, not two-part, socket that did not have a means of
disconnecting the rest of the house wiring. I walked all round the outside
of the house but there was no grey conduit taking the BT cable out of the
ground and feeding it into the house.

And what if the phone drop wire from the overhead line comes into an
old-style GPO Telephones grey rectangular box which then feeds several
cables around the house, but again with no two-part BT master socket
anywhere?


If it was a very recnt build the property may have had an external NTE as
pictured at:
http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/netw..._Guide_3_1.pdf
This being the case then all the internal wiring is the customers
responsibility...

Paul






  #5  
Old June 18th 10, 09:43 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom
R. Mark Clayton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 699
Default Boundary between BT and householder responsibility for phone wiring


"Mortimer" wrote in message
.. .
As I understand it, for a house with a two-part BT master socket, the
boundary between BT and householder responsibility for line faults that
affect broadband is the master socket: *even if BT rather than the
householder has installed an extension*, that extension is the
householder's responsibility.

But what is the situation if there no discernable master socket? The other
day I was called to investigate a broadband fault (sudden total loss of
DSL carrier (*)) at recently-built house which had non-BT sockets
installed by the builder and one BT-labelled socket which was a
single-part, not two-part, socket that did not have a means of
disconnecting the rest of the house wiring. I walked all round the outside
of the house but there was no grey conduit taking the BT cable out of the
ground and feeding it into the house.

And what if the phone drop wire from the overhead line comes into an
old-style GPO Telephones grey rectangular box which then feeds several
cables around the house, but again with no two-part BT master socket
anywhere?


(*) When the ISP got BT to investigate, they found that the fault was in a
junction box in the street, so definitely not the householder's
responsibility, but had it not been so, I'm not sure who would have paid
if the fault had been before that BT-labelled non-master socket.


Pretty much unless you or someone working for you damages the BT cable etc.
on your land.


  #6  
Old June 19th 10, 11:59 AM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom
Bernard Peek
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 202
Default Boundary between BT and householder responsibility for phonewiring

On 18/06/10 10:37, Mortimer wrote:
As I understand it, for a house with a two-part BT master socket, the
boundary between BT and householder responsibility for line faults that
affect broadband is the master socket: *even if BT rather than the
householder has installed an extension*, that extension is the
householder's responsibility.


The situation isn't quite that good. BT's responsibility ends with the
test socket inside the master socket. The socket on the faceplate is the
householder's responsibility. This is why BT recommend that if you have
any line-noise problems you connect a known-good phone directly to the
test socket.


--
Bernard Peek

  #7  
Old June 19th 10, 01:39 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom
James
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Boundary between BT and householder responsibility for phonewiring

Paulg0 wrote:
"Mortimer" wrote in message
.. .

snip
And what if the phone drop wire from the overhead line comes into an
old-style GPO Telephones grey rectangular box which then feeds several
cables around the house, but again with no two-part BT master socket
anywhere?


If it was a very recnt build the property may have had an external NTE
as pictured at:
http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/netw..._Guide_3_1.pdf


What happens when the ISP asks you to plug your router
into the test socket?
  #8  
Old June 19th 10, 06:27 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom
nrs22
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Boundary between BT and householder responsibility for phonewiring

On Jun 19, 11:39 am, James wrote:
Paulg0 wrote:
"Mortimer" wrote in message
.. .

snip
And what if the phone drop wire from the overhead line comes into an
old-style GPO Telephones grey rectangular box which then feeds several
cables around the house, but again with no two-part BT master socket
anywhere?


If it was a very recent build the property may have had an external NTE
as pictured at:
http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/netw..._Guide_3_1.pdf


What happens when the ISP asks you to plug your router
into the test socket?


By removing the outer plate front panel with consumer socket, from the
test socket, you are also disconnecting all of the other wiring inside
the
building from BT's network. The house wiring usually terminates on the
reverse of that removable outer plate front panel.

By plugging your router directly into the test socket you are
eliminating
all of the wiring inside the building, and connecting directly to BT's
part
of the cabling.

If the signal suddenly improves, that indicates the fault is with the
wiring
inside the building. If the fault is the same, then the fault is
likely to be
somewhere "outside", "down the road", or "back at the exchange".


  #9  
Old June 19th 10, 06:31 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom
Andy Burns
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 486
Default Boundary between BT and householder responsibility for phonewiring

nrs22 wrote:

On Jun 19, 11:39 am, wrote:

What happens when the ISP asks you to plug your router
into the test socket?


By removing the outer plate front panel with consumer socket, from the
test socket, you are also disconnecting all of the other wiring inside
the building from BT's network. The house wiring usually terminates on
the reverse of that removable outer plate front panel.


And with the EXTERNAL NTE that was being asked about?

  #10  
Old June 19th 10, 07:05 PM posted to uk.comp.home-networking,uk.telecom
nrs22
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Boundary between BT and householder responsibility for phonewiring

On Jun 19, 4:31 pm, Andy Burns wrote:
nrs22 wrote:
On Jun 19, 11:39 am, wrote:


What happens when the ISP asks you to plug your router
into the test socket?


By removing the outer plate front panel with consumer socket, from the
test socket, you are also disconnecting all of the other wiring inside
the building from BT's network. The house wiring usually terminates on
the reverse of that removable outer plate front panel.


And with the EXTERNAL NTE that was being asked about?


You'll need a ladder. Or crampons.
 




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