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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

Router fails with Zen Internet



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 9th 11, 04:04 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
bod43
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 105
Default Router fails with Zen Internet

The unnatural thunker mentioned:-
"If it were mined I'd have a full *nix networking utilities setup probing
away..but these days, if all you have is Windoesn't, its a problem to debug."

What utilities are you missing?

I have been doing network troubleshooting with windows
for decades and I have assembled what I consider to be
a decent toolkit. Let me know what you think is absent
and with a bit of luck I may be able to offer a suggestion




  #2  
Old February 9th 11, 12:11 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
The Natural Philosopher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,728
Default Router fails with Zen Internet

bod43 wrote:
The unnatural thunker mentioned:-
"If it were mined I'd have a full *nix networking utilities setup probing
away..but these days, if all you have is Windoesn't, its a problem to debug."

What utilities are you missing?

I have been doing network troubleshooting with windows
for decades and I have assembled what I consider to be
a decent toolkit. Let me know what you think is absent
and with a bit of luck I may be able to offer a suggestion




Is because I have linux I don't need them, and I don't have the problem
anyway.

  #3  
Old February 9th 11, 12:22 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 620
Default Router fails with Zen Internet


"bod43" wrote in message
...
The unnatural thunker mentioned:-
"If it were mined I'd have a full *nix networking utilities setup probing
away..but these days, if all you have is Windoesn't, its a problem to
debug."

What utilities are you missing?

I have been doing network troubleshooting with windows
for decades and I have assembled what I consider to be
a decent toolkit. Let me know what you think is absent
and with a bit of luck I may be able to offer a suggestion


In response to many of the questions raised:

1) I'm testing this router (GetNet GA-524WA) because:

a) It's cheap - see:
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/getne...-4-port-switch

b) It has many of the features I find useful, including: remote management
controlled by ACL allowing several different entries, DDNS, keyhole slots
for wall mounting, load/save configuration facility, etc.

2) The basic test configuration is a PC running Outlook configured with 7
different POP3 accounts. These accounts are unrelated to any ISP and have
their own SMTP servers configured.

3) The router is factory reset and reconfigured using the wizard for each
test. Only the ISP's login credentials are supplied. The firewall is in its
default factory configuration; and the device does not claim to contain any
antivirus or anti-spyware.

4) The only other firewall present is the basic Windows firewall in the test
PC. AVG 2011 runs on the PC.

5) All other routers ever tried have behaved correctly (Vigor, Edimax,
Netgear, 3Com, Dlink, Belkin, etc ...)

6) There is no firmware upgrade available on the manufacturer's website -
but the product is fairly new.

7) As previously explained, the GetNet router works correctly when connected
to an ADSL service provide by Demon or Plusnet. But when connected to an
ADSL service provided by Zen Internet it fails as described below - on three
different lines at three different locations. Two different GetNet routers
(with consecutive serial numbers) have been tried.

8) When connected to Zen, the GetNet router reports ADSL sync (with
appropriate SNR margin and line rate as expected for the line), browses the
web correctly, shows sensible speed test reports consistent with what the
lines are known to achieve, but does not collect email from the POP3
accounts. Monitoring the ethernet traffic between PC and router shows the
POP3 requests going out, but no responses coming in. Curiously, very
occasionally (perhaps 1% of the time) a POP3 request does succeed. A
monitoring tool that would look at the ADSL port might be useful here - it
would show whether the POP3 server is actually sending a response.

9) I have also tested with other PCs (all running Outlook, and a Linux
system running fetchmail). These other test machines show the same problem.

I have not yet discussed the problem with Zen.

--
Graham J


  #4  
Old February 9th 11, 12:52 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Bernard Peek
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 202
Default Router fails with Zen Internet

On 09/02/11 11:22, Graham J wrote:

8) When connected to Zen, the GetNet router reports ADSL sync (with
appropriate SNR margin and line rate as expected for the line), browses the
web correctly, shows sensible speed test reports consistent with what the
lines are known to achieve, but does not collect email from the POP3
accounts. Monitoring the ethernet traffic between PC and router shows the
POP3 requests going out, but no responses coming in. Curiously, very
occasionally (perhaps 1% of the time) a POP3 request does succeed. A
monitoring tool that would look at the ADSL port might be useful here - it
would show whether the POP3 server is actually sending a response.


have you tried a telnet connection to the POP3 servers? That should tell
you whether they are responding.


9) I have also tested with other PCs (all running Outlook, and a Linux
system running fetchmail). These other test machines show the same problem.

I have not yet discussed the problem with Zen.


Zen's tech support has been pretty good on the rare occasions I've
needed to use them.


--
Bernard Peek

  #5  
Old February 9th 11, 12:53 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
The Natural Philosopher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,728
Default Router fails with Zen Internet

Graham J wrote:
"bod43" wrote in message
...
The unnatural thunker mentioned:-
"If it were mined I'd have a full *nix networking utilities setup probing
away..but these days, if all you have is Windoesn't, its a problem to
debug."

What utilities are you missing?

I have been doing network troubleshooting with windows
for decades and I have assembled what I consider to be
a decent toolkit. Let me know what you think is absent
and with a bit of luck I may be able to offer a suggestion


In response to many of the questions raised:

1) I'm testing this router (GetNet GA-524WA) because:

a) It's cheap - see:
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/getne...-4-port-switch

b) It has many of the features I find useful, including: remote management
controlled by ACL allowing several different entries, DDNS, keyhole slots
for wall mounting, load/save configuration facility, etc.

2) The basic test configuration is a PC running Outlook configured with 7
different POP3 accounts. These accounts are unrelated to any ISP and have
their own SMTP servers configured.

3) The router is factory reset and reconfigured using the wizard for each
test. Only the ISP's login credentials are supplied. The firewall is in its
default factory configuration; and the device does not claim to contain any
antivirus or anti-spyware.

4) The only other firewall present is the basic Windows firewall in the test
PC. AVG 2011 runs on the PC.

5) All other routers ever tried have behaved correctly (Vigor, Edimax,
Netgear, 3Com, Dlink, Belkin, etc ...)

6) There is no firmware upgrade available on the manufacturer's website -
but the product is fairly new.

7) As previously explained, the GetNet router works correctly when connected
to an ADSL service provide by Demon or Plusnet. But when connected to an
ADSL service provided by Zen Internet it fails as described below - on three
different lines at three different locations. Two different GetNet routers
(with consecutive serial numbers) have been tried.


Unless they are LLU offerings, it will in every case be connecting to BT
DSLAM and backhaul.

So its very very strange indeed. If it works AT ALL it must be OK at the
ATM level too.


That leaves IP issues. And very subtle ones at that.



8) When connected to Zen, the GetNet router reports ADSL sync (with
appropriate SNR margin and line rate as expected for the line), browses the
web correctly, shows sensible speed test reports consistent with what the
lines are known to achieve, but does not collect email from the POP3
accounts. Monitoring the ethernet traffic between PC and router shows the
POP3 requests going out, but no responses coming in. Curiously, very
occasionally (perhaps 1% of the time) a POP3 request does succeed. A
monitoring tool that would look at the ADSL port might be useful here - it
would show whether the POP3 server is actually sending a response.


I think this may well be a packet size issue. Its the only thing that
can make large IP transfers fail when small packets work.

Have you tried telnet pop server 110?



9) I have also tested with other PCs (all running Outlook, and a Linux
system running fetchmail). These other test machines show the same problem.


It is almost inconceivable that one protocol fails whilst others work.
Unless there is some sort of filter on that protocol.



I have not yet discussed the problem with Zen.

  #6  
Old February 9th 11, 06:15 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 620
Default Router fails with Zen Internet

[snip]

7) As previously explained, the GetNet router works correctly when
connected to an ADSL service provide by Demon or Plusnet. But when
connected to an ADSL service provided by Zen Internet it fails as
described below - on three different lines at three different locations.
Two different GetNet routers (with consecutive serial numbers) have been
tried.

Unless they are LLU offerings, it will in every case be connecting to BT
DSLAM and backhaul.

So its very very strange indeed. If it works AT ALL it must be OK at the
ATM level too.

That leaves IP issues. And very subtle ones at that.


Agreed

8) When connected to Zen, the GetNet router reports ADSL sync (with
appropriate SNR margin and line rate as expected for the line), browses
the web correctly, shows sensible speed test reports consistent with what
the lines are known to achieve, but does not collect email from the POP3
accounts. Monitoring the ethernet traffic between PC and router shows
the POP3 requests going out, but no responses coming in. Curiously, very
occasionally (perhaps 1% of the time) a POP3 request does succeed. A
monitoring tool that would look at the ADSL port might be useful here -
it would show whether the POP3 server is actually sending a response.


I think this may well be a packet size issue. Its the only thing that can
make large IP transfers fail when small packets work.


MTU currently set to default value =1500

Have you tried telnet pop server 110?


Good thought - will try later ...

9) I have also tested with other PCs (all running Outlook, and a Linux
system running fetchmail). These other test machines show the same
problem.

It is almost inconceivable that one protocol fails whilst others work.
Unless there is some sort of filter on that protocol.


Just tried configuring the GetNet in bridge mode, and using an ethernet
router to send PPPoE through it. Works correctly! So the modem component
is not the cause of the problem. I shouldn't think the modem does any
packet filtering or packet fragmentation so we probably haven't learnt much.

--
Graham J


  #7  
Old February 9th 11, 09:06 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
The Natural Philosopher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,728
Default Router fails with Zen Internet

Graham J wrote:
[snip]

7) As previously explained, the GetNet router works correctly when
connected to an ADSL service provide by Demon or Plusnet. But when
connected to an ADSL service provided by Zen Internet it fails as
described below - on three different lines at three different locations.
Two different GetNet routers (with consecutive serial numbers) have been
tried.

Unless they are LLU offerings, it will in every case be connecting to BT
DSLAM and backhaul.

So its very very strange indeed. If it works AT ALL it must be OK at the
ATM level too.

That leaves IP issues. And very subtle ones at that.


Agreed

8) When connected to Zen, the GetNet router reports ADSL sync (with
appropriate SNR margin and line rate as expected for the line), browses
the web correctly, shows sensible speed test reports consistent with what
the lines are known to achieve, but does not collect email from the POP3
accounts. Monitoring the ethernet traffic between PC and router shows
the POP3 requests going out, but no responses coming in. Curiously, very
occasionally (perhaps 1% of the time) a POP3 request does succeed. A
monitoring tool that would look at the ADSL port might be useful here -
it would show whether the POP3 server is actually sending a response.

I think this may well be a packet size issue. Its the only thing that can
make large IP transfers fail when small packets work.


MTU currently set to default value =1500


Try 1400. The magic figure is 1432 IIRC. The max packet that fits in an
ATM frame.



Have you tried telnet pop server 110?


Good thought - will try later ...

9) I have also tested with other PCs (all running Outlook, and a Linux
system running fetchmail). These other test machines show the same
problem.

It is almost inconceivable that one protocol fails whilst others work.
Unless there is some sort of filter on that protocol.


Just tried configuring the GetNet in bridge mode, and using an ethernet
router to send PPPoE through it. Works correctly! So the modem component
is not the cause of the problem. I shouldn't think the modem does any
packet filtering or packet fragmentation so we probably haven't learnt much.


I think the problem is either with the ATM area or the IP area. If it
synchs at all, the modem will be fine.

  #8  
Old February 9th 11, 09:39 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Mark Carver
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 461
Default Router fails with Zen Internet

The Natural Philosopher wrote:


MTU currently set to default value =1500


Try 1400. The magic figure is 1432 IIRC. The max packet that fits in an
ATM frame.


I thought 1492 was the max ?

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2516

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

www.paras.org.uk
  #9  
Old February 9th 11, 11:39 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
The Natural Philosopher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,728
Default Router fails with Zen Internet

Mark Carver wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:


MTU currently set to default value =1500


Try 1400. The magic figure is 1432 IIRC. The max packet that fits in
an ATM frame.


I thought 1492 was the max ?

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2516

DSL is generally PPPoA in this country.. IIRC the ATM frame eats into
the other bytes somewhat..

Here is a reasonable crib sheet, and it is certainly worth a try

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/tweak2.htm


Anyyay if you try 1400 and it all springs to life, then you can retune
for better response: the main thing is to establish whether the fault is
MTU related or not.

  #10  
Old February 10th 11, 01:41 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 620
Default Router fails with Zen Internet


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Graham J wrote:
[snip]

7) As previously explained, the GetNet router works correctly when
connected to an ADSL service provide by Demon or Plusnet. But when
connected to an ADSL service provided by Zen Internet it fails as
described below - on three different lines at three different
locations. Two different GetNet routers (with consecutive serial
numbers) have been tried.

Unless they are LLU offerings, it will in every case be connecting to BT
DSLAM and backhaul.

So its very very strange indeed. If it works AT ALL it must be OK at the
ATM level too.

That leaves IP issues. And very subtle ones at that.


Agreed

8) When connected to Zen, the GetNet router reports ADSL sync (with
appropriate SNR margin and line rate as expected for the line), browses
the web correctly, shows sensible speed test reports consistent with
what the lines are known to achieve, but does not collect email from
the POP3 accounts. Monitoring the ethernet traffic between PC and
router shows the POP3 requests going out, but no responses coming in.
Curiously, very occasionally (perhaps 1% of the time) a POP3 request
does succeed. A monitoring tool that would look at the ADSL port might
be useful here - it would show whether the POP3 server is actually
sending a response.

I think this may well be a packet size issue. Its the only thing that
can make large IP transfers fail when small packets work.


MTU currently set to default value =1500


Try 1400. The magic figure is 1432 IIRC. The max packet that fits in an
ATM frame.


Changing MTU size in the router makes no difference. Neither does changing
the MTU in the PC

I would have thought that the POP3 packets are very small, so packet
fragmentation is unlikely; and MTU size would be irrelevant


Have you tried telnet pop server 110?


Good thought - will try later ...


telnet
OPEN pop.123-reg.co.uk 110
Connection to pop.123-reg.co.uk...Could not open your connection to the
host, on port 110: Connect failed

.... this after a long delay - perhaps 300 seconds.

Yet:
PING pop.123-reg.co.uk
.... immediate replies

Telnet to a known FTP server using port 21 responds as expected.

--
Graham J




 




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