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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

Of interest to BT BT2700HGV/2WIRE users



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 7th 11, 08:34 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Brian
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Of interest to BT BT2700HGV/2WIRE users

This has appeared in the closed BT broadband newsgroup and may be of
interest to someone:

http://superuser.com/questions/28006...hen-under-load

or http://tinyurl.com/5t5dj7c


  #2  
Old May 17th 11, 01:06 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
DC
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default Of interest to BT BT2700HGV/2WIRE users

On Sat, 7 May 2011 19:34:38 +0100, "Brian" wrote:

This has appeared in the closed BT broadband newsgroup and may be of
interest to someone:

http://superuser.com/questions/28006...hen-under-load

or http://tinyurl.com/5t5dj7c



Interesting, Thanks.
--
The End
  #3  
Old May 19th 11, 04:16 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
kraftee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,069
Default Of interest to BT BT2700HGV/2WIRE users


"DC" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 7 May 2011 19:34:38 +0100, "Brian" wrote:

This has appeared in the closed BT broadband newsgroup and may be of
interest to someone:

http://superuser.com/questions/28006...hen-under-load

or http://tinyurl.com/5t5dj7c



Interesting, Thanks.


New.....not

Interesting .....why?

If, as the OP states they are using the full bandwidth to download,
everything else will stop, no error checks, no rec or accs. Nothing else
will get through as, as they originally stated they are using all the
bandwidth for the download.

  #4  
Old May 19th 11, 08:16 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Toby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Of interest to BT BT2700HGV/2WIRE users

"kraftee" kraftee:b&e-cottee.me.uk wrote in message
...

"DC" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 7 May 2011 19:34:38 +0100, "Brian" wrote:

This has appeared in the closed BT broadband newsgroup and may be of
interest to someone:

http://superuser.com/questions/28006...hen-under-load

or http://tinyurl.com/5t5dj7c



Interesting, Thanks.


New.....not

Interesting .....why?

If, as the OP states they are using the full bandwidth to download,
everything else will stop, no error checks, no rec or accs. Nothing else
will get through as, as they originally stated they are using all the
bandwidth for the download.


That is not true.

Packets coming in the downstream direction can be from many sources, of
course we cant exceed our allocation but if we did so this would create
random packet drops across all incoming applications, this in itself would
lead to TCP slowing down the flow to avoid the congestion or the Application
that uses UDP namely DNS to do the same and re-transmission would ensure a
reliable service with multiple IP streams, Now I know this sounds
complicated but put simply these mechanisms adjust to the available
bandwidth and delay in the network to be efficient. What they dont do is hog
it all to one application/download.

Without these mechanisms the Internet would just have died very early on.

So this does seem to be a router problem and most probably with DNS Relay
only, I dont though have a 2wire or HH3 but the only workaround I can think
of is to check the router via it's web based gui for the dns ip addresses
and set them up in the network settings on your computer so that the router
does not relay any more but just routes the DNS requests like any other IP
Packet.

Toby


  #5  
Old May 20th 11, 11:49 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Nick Leverton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 101
Default Of interest to BT BT2700HGV/2WIRE users

In article ,
Toby wrote:

Packets coming in the downstream direction can be from many sources, of
course we cant exceed our allocation but if we did so this would create
random packet drops across all incoming applications, this in itself would
lead to TCP slowing down the flow to avoid the congestion or the Application
that uses UDP namely DNS to do the same and re-transmission would ensure a
reliable service with multiple IP streams, Now I know this sounds
complicated but put simply these mechanisms adjust to the available
bandwidth and delay in the network to be efficient. What they dont do is hog
it all to one application/download.


This is supposed to happen, but it doesn't. The problem is that modern
routers (not just domestic routers but ISP-level) have so much RAM and
such large buffers that the algorithms developed when buffer sizes were
small relative to transit times are no longer working.

Added to this, some service providers have taken to just chucking out as
much data as they can at the start of the connection so as to maximise
"throughput", not realising that they are defeating the very mechanisms
which are supposed to ensure throughput is maximised for the bandwidth
actually available.

This "Bufferbloat" phenomenon was discovered and analysed by Jim
Gettys last year, and has led to projects to address it via new IP level
mechanisms as well as to raise the profile of the problem amongst software
and hardware developers and standards organisations.

See http://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki for more information
(various documents at various technical levels, take your pick).

Without these mechanisms the Internet would just have died very early on.


The early Internet did in fact collapse on one occasion before congestion
mechanisms were added to it.

There is concern that it may be close to another collapse, with wildly
fluctuating and unreliable connections as we all observe every day due
to the fact that routers buffer up so much data that the flow control
is responding too slow, too little and too late.

Doesn't directly help in analysing the OP's DNS problems, but if his link
is maxed out much of the time then the DNS replies could indeed be stuck
in a buffer somewhere behind several minutes worth of download traffic.

Nick
--
Serendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 29th March 2010)
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996
  #6  
Old May 20th 11, 12:11 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Toby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Of interest to BT BT2700HGV/2WIRE users

"Nick Leverton" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Toby wrote:

Packets coming in the downstream direction can be from many sources, of
course we cant exceed our allocation but if we did so this would create
random packet drops across all incoming applications, this in itself would
lead to TCP slowing down the flow to avoid the congestion or the
Application
that uses UDP namely DNS to do the same and re-transmission would ensure a
reliable service with multiple IP streams, Now I know this sounds
complicated but put simply these mechanisms adjust to the available
bandwidth and delay in the network to be efficient. What they dont do is
hog
it all to one application/download.


This is supposed to happen, but it doesn't. The problem is that modern
routers (not just domestic routers but ISP-level) have so much RAM and
such large buffers that the algorithms developed when buffer sizes were
small relative to transit times are no longer working.

Added to this, some service providers have taken to just chucking out as
much data as they can at the start of the connection so as to maximise
"throughput", not realising that they are defeating the very mechanisms
which are supposed to ensure throughput is maximised for the bandwidth
actually available.

This "Bufferbloat" phenomenon was discovered and analysed by Jim
Gettys last year, and has led to projects to address it via new IP level
mechanisms as well as to raise the profile of the problem amongst software
and hardware developers and standards organisations.

See http://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki for more information
(various documents at various technical levels, take your pick).

Without these mechanisms the Internet would just have died very early on.


The early Internet did in fact collapse on one occasion before congestion
mechanisms were added to it.

There is concern that it may be close to another collapse, with wildly
fluctuating and unreliable connections as we all observe every day due
to the fact that routers buffer up so much data that the flow control
is responding too slow, too little and too late.

Doesn't directly help in analysing the OP's DNS problems, but if his link
is maxed out much of the time then the DNS replies could indeed be stuck
in a buffer somewhere behind several minutes worth of download traffic.

Nick
--
Serendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 29th March 2010)
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996


Thanks Nick

I will read up on bufferbloat as that may be interesting.

This is not the problem here though as it has been reported on the
bt.broadband.support newsgroup that the problem disappears if the user
reconfigures the dns settings on the pc to not use the broadband router as a
relay.

Toby


  #7  
Old May 21st 11, 06:55 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
kraftee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,069
Default Of interest to BT BT2700HGV/2WIRE users


"Toby" wrote in message
...
"Nick Leverton" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Toby wrote:

Packets coming in the downstream direction can be from many sources, of
course we cant exceed our allocation but if we did so this would create
random packet drops across all incoming applications, this in itself
would
lead to TCP slowing down the flow to avoid the congestion or the
Application
that uses UDP namely DNS to do the same and re-transmission would ensure
a
reliable service with multiple IP streams, Now I know this sounds
complicated but put simply these mechanisms adjust to the available
bandwidth and delay in the network to be efficient. What they dont do is
hog
it all to one application/download.


This is supposed to happen, but it doesn't. The problem is that modern
routers (not just domestic routers but ISP-level) have so much RAM and
such large buffers that the algorithms developed when buffer sizes were
small relative to transit times are no longer working.

Added to this, some service providers have taken to just chucking out as
much data as they can at the start of the connection so as to maximise
"throughput", not realising that they are defeating the very mechanisms
which are supposed to ensure throughput is maximised for the bandwidth
actually available.

This "Bufferbloat" phenomenon was discovered and analysed by Jim
Gettys last year, and has led to projects to address it via new IP level
mechanisms as well as to raise the profile of the problem amongst
software
and hardware developers and standards organisations.

See http://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki for more information
(various documents at various technical levels, take your pick).

Without these mechanisms the Internet would just have died very early on.


The early Internet did in fact collapse on one occasion before congestion
mechanisms were added to it.

There is concern that it may be close to another collapse, with wildly
fluctuating and unreliable connections as we all observe every day due
to the fact that routers buffer up so much data that the flow control
is responding too slow, too little and too late.

Doesn't directly help in analysing the OP's DNS problems, but if his link
is maxed out much of the time then the DNS replies could indeed be stuck
in a buffer somewhere behind several minutes worth of download traffic.

Nick
--
Serendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 29th March
2010)
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996


Thanks Nick

I will read up on bufferbloat as that may be interesting.

This is not the problem here though as it has been reported on the
bt.broadband.support newsgroup that the problem disappears if the user
reconfigures the dns settings on the pc to not use the broadband router as
a relay.


Surely most experienced users wouldn't do that anyway.

  #8  
Old May 23rd 11, 11:44 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Mark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 525
Default Of interest to BT BT2700HGV/2WIRE users

On Sat, 21 May 2011 17:55:35 +0100, "kraftee"
kraftee:b&e-cottee.me.uk wrote:


"Toby" wrote in message
...
"Nick Leverton" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Toby wrote:

Packets coming in the downstream direction can be from many sources, of
course we cant exceed our allocation but if we did so this would create
random packet drops across all incoming applications, this in itself
would
lead to TCP slowing down the flow to avoid the congestion or the
Application
that uses UDP namely DNS to do the same and re-transmission would ensure
a
reliable service with multiple IP streams, Now I know this sounds
complicated but put simply these mechanisms adjust to the available
bandwidth and delay in the network to be efficient. What they dont do is
hog
it all to one application/download.

This is supposed to happen, but it doesn't. The problem is that modern
routers (not just domestic routers but ISP-level) have so much RAM and
such large buffers that the algorithms developed when buffer sizes were
small relative to transit times are no longer working.

Added to this, some service providers have taken to just chucking out as
much data as they can at the start of the connection so as to maximise
"throughput", not realising that they are defeating the very mechanisms
which are supposed to ensure throughput is maximised for the bandwidth
actually available.

This "Bufferbloat" phenomenon was discovered and analysed by Jim
Gettys last year, and has led to projects to address it via new IP level
mechanisms as well as to raise the profile of the problem amongst
software
and hardware developers and standards organisations.

See http://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki for more information
(various documents at various technical levels, take your pick).

Without these mechanisms the Internet would just have died very early on.

The early Internet did in fact collapse on one occasion before congestion
mechanisms were added to it.

There is concern that it may be close to another collapse, with wildly
fluctuating and unreliable connections as we all observe every day due
to the fact that routers buffer up so much data that the flow control
is responding too slow, too little and too late.

Doesn't directly help in analysing the OP's DNS problems, but if his link
is maxed out much of the time then the DNS replies could indeed be stuck
in a buffer somewhere behind several minutes worth of download traffic.

Nick
--
Serendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 29th March
2010)
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996


Thanks Nick

I will read up on bufferbloat as that may be interesting.

This is not the problem here though as it has been reported on the
bt.broadband.support newsgroup that the problem disappears if the user
reconfigures the dns settings on the pc to not use the broadband router as
a relay.


Surely most experienced users wouldn't do that anyway.


I would have thought the opposite. Better to have a local DNS cache
than needing to send every request to your DNS server.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

  #9  
Old May 23rd 11, 01:05 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
The Natural Philosopher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,728
Default Of interest to BT BT2700HGV/2WIRE users

Mark wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2011 17:55:35 +0100, "kraftee"
kraftee:b&e-cottee.me.uk wrote:

"Toby" wrote in message
...
"Nick Leverton" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Toby wrote:
Packets coming in the downstream direction can be from many sources, of
course we cant exceed our allocation but if we did so this would create
random packet drops across all incoming applications, this in itself
would
lead to TCP slowing down the flow to avoid the congestion or the
Application
that uses UDP namely DNS to do the same and re-transmission would ensure
a
reliable service with multiple IP streams, Now I know this sounds
complicated but put simply these mechanisms adjust to the available
bandwidth and delay in the network to be efficient. What they dont do is
hog
it all to one application/download.
This is supposed to happen, but it doesn't. The problem is that modern
routers (not just domestic routers but ISP-level) have so much RAM and
such large buffers that the algorithms developed when buffer sizes were
small relative to transit times are no longer working.

Added to this, some service providers have taken to just chucking out as
much data as they can at the start of the connection so as to maximise
"throughput", not realising that they are defeating the very mechanisms
which are supposed to ensure throughput is maximised for the bandwidth
actually available.

This "Bufferbloat" phenomenon was discovered and analysed by Jim
Gettys last year, and has led to projects to address it via new IP level
mechanisms as well as to raise the profile of the problem amongst
software
and hardware developers and standards organisations.

See http://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki for more information
(various documents at various technical levels, take your pick).

Without these mechanisms the Internet would just have died very early on.
The early Internet did in fact collapse on one occasion before congestion
mechanisms were added to it.

There is concern that it may be close to another collapse, with wildly
fluctuating and unreliable connections as we all observe every day due
to the fact that routers buffer up so much data that the flow control
is responding too slow, too little and too late.

Doesn't directly help in analysing the OP's DNS problems, but if his link
is maxed out much of the time then the DNS replies could indeed be stuck
in a buffer somewhere behind several minutes worth of download traffic.

Nick
--
Serendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 29th March
2010)
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996
Thanks Nick

I will read up on bufferbloat as that may be interesting.

This is not the problem here though as it has been reported on the
bt.broadband.support newsgroup that the problem disappears if the user
reconfigures the dns settings on the pc to not use the broadband router as
a relay.

Surely most experienced users wouldn't do that anyway.


I would have thought the opposite. Better to have a local DNS cache
than needing to send every request to your DNS server.


Answer is simple.. Run your own DNS server. Everything is cached locally.

No interception of your requests..



 




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