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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

FTTC query



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 24th 11, 01:18 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Peter Crosland
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,463
Default FTTC query

Can any Openreach engineer tell me if the voice part of the signal to the
FTTC cabinet is over copper or fibre. This may sound a silly question but I
have had conflicting answers to the question and would like a definitive
answer TIA

Peter Crosland


  #2  
Old August 24th 11, 01:37 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 620
Default FTTC query

Peter Crosland wrote:
Can any Openreach engineer tell me if the voice part of the signal to the
FTTC cabinet is over copper or fibre. This may sound a silly question but I
have had conflicting answers to the question and would like a definitive
answer TIA

Peter Crosland


From house to cabinet = copper
from cabinet to exchange = copper

The DSLAM is installed in the cabinet, and it feeds the VDSL signal
along the copper wires to the house.

--
Graham J
  #3  
Old August 24th 11, 01:46 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
The Natural Philosopher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,728
Default FTTC query

Peter Crosland wrote:
Can any Openreach engineer tell me if the voice part of the signal to the
FTTC cabinet is over copper or fibre. This may sound a silly question but I
have had conflicting answers to the question and would like a definitive
answer TIA

Peter Crosland


Do you mean from the exchange, or from the customer premises?

It would seem a bit silly to maintain pairs from the exchange to the
cabinet rather than muxing them over the fibre...mind you, silliness is
rife.

I assume the cabinet to premises is good old copper pairs though with
phones on the baseband.

Oh I found something. Yes, its silliness all right

http://www.btwebworld.com/sinet/STIN495v1p0.pdf

"The Street DSLAM is served with a fibre back to the exchange to carry
the Broadband signals. (The telephone exchange at which the Broadband
service is handed over to BTW is not necessarily the same exchange
providing telephony services to the End User.). The Street DSLAM is
connected to the Street Cabinet using tie pair cables. VDSL 2 is used to
carry the Broadband over the copper pair from the Street Cabinet to the
End Users' premises. See the diagram below. "

(actually there is no diagram below. There is one above: ed)

"The Public Switched Telephony Service (PSTN) is unaffected by this new
technology and continues to be supplied over the copper pair between the
Exchange and End Users's premises."

The key thing seems to be that they may decide to string fibre from a
completely different exchange to the one that feeds the voice.

Yet another instance of BT failing to bite the bullet and go all VOIP..

which seems relatively insane really.




  #4  
Old August 24th 11, 02:06 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Peter Crosland
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,463
Default FTTC query

"Graham J" [email protected] wrote in message
...
Peter Crosland wrote:
Can any Openreach engineer tell me if the voice part of the signal to the
FTTC cabinet is over copper or fibre. This may sound a silly question but
I
have had conflicting answers to the question and would like a definitive
answer TIA

Peter Crosland


From house to cabinet = copper
from cabinet to exchange = copper

The DSLAM is installed in the cabinet, and it feeds the VDSL signal along
the copper wires to the house.



Thanks.

Peter Crosland


  #5  
Old August 24th 11, 03:50 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Andy Burns
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 486
Default FTTC query

Peter Crosland wrote:

Can any Openreach engineer tell me if the voice part of the signal to the
FTTC cabinet is over copper or fibre. This may sound a silly question but I
have had conflicting answers to the question and would like a definitive
answer TIA


I can't claim to be definitive, but i'll give you 500:1 that the voice
is copper all the way from the exchange, ...

  #7  
Old August 24th 11, 04:37 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Invalid
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 150
Default FTTC query

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
Peter Crosland wrote:
Can any Openreach engineer tell me if the voice part of the signal to
the FTTC cabinet is over copper or fibre. This may sound a silly
question but I have had conflicting answers to the question and would
like a definitive answer TIA
Peter Crosland

Do you mean from the exchange, or from the customer premises?

It would seem a bit silly to maintain pairs from the exchange to the
cabinet rather than muxing them over the fibre...mind you, silliness is
rife.

I assume the cabinet to premises is good old copper pairs though with
phones on the baseband.

Oh I found something. Yes, its silliness all right

http://www.btwebworld.com/sinet/STIN495v1p0.pdf

"The Street DSLAM is served with a fibre back to the exchange to carry
the Broadband signals. (The telephone exchange at which the Broadband
service is handed over to BTW is not necessarily the same exchange
providing telephony services to the End User.). The Street DSLAM is
connected to the Street Cabinet using tie pair cables. VDSL 2 is used
to carry the Broadband over the copper pair from the Street Cabinet to
the End Users' premises. See the diagram below. "

(actually there is no diagram below. There is one above: ed)

"The Public Switched Telephony Service (PSTN) is unaffected by this new
technology and continues to be supplied over the copper pair between
the Exchange and End Users's premises."

The key thing seems to be that they may decide to string fibre from a
completely different exchange to the one that feeds the voice.

Yet another instance of BT failing to bite the bullet and go all VOIP..

which seems relatively insane really.




The relative degree of insanity depends on your other
priorities/constraints.

If you want (have to?) to maintain voice services (for emergency use) in
the event of power outages, then under a fibre scheme for voice the FTTC
cabs would need biggish batteries and even the capability to be
generator supplied.

If you presume that most people do not run their router off a UPS, then
you can (reasonably safely) assume that allowing the fibre cab to go
down in a power outage will not be a big deal - and hence make the
roll-out a lot cheaper.

Interestingly OFCOM has a current consultation document at

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/bin...perfast-broadb
and/summary/battery_condoc.pdf

requesting comments on the idea that FTTP installations should have the
requirements for battery backup reduced from four hours to one hour in
the interest of roll out cost.

I wonder who is going to be responsible for the long term maintenance
and end of life exchange of all those batteries?

In the US Verizon's FiOS product provides voice (but not Voip) for 8
hours in the event of power outages, but it makes the battery the
subscribers property/problem (one year warranty on the lead acid battery
- then if you need to replace it its US$46.00 to buy and you do it
yourself.)

http://www22.verizon.com/residential...al+support/get
ting+started/questionsone/121498.htm
--
Invalid
  #8  
Old August 25th 11, 01:34 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Brian Gregory [UK]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 208
Default FTTC query

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Peter Crosland wrote:
Can any Openreach engineer tell me if the voice part of the signal to the
FTTC cabinet is over copper or fibre. This may sound a silly question but
I have had conflicting answers to the question and would like a
definitive answer TIA

Peter Crosland

Do you mean from the exchange, or from the customer premises?

It would seem a bit silly to maintain pairs from the exchange to the
cabinet rather than muxing them over the fibre...mind you, silliness is
rife.


But you'd need so much more equipment in the cabinet.

And the work needed when people switched their broadband between FTTC and
normal would be much much more.


I assume the cabinet to premises is good old copper pairs though with
phones on the baseband.

Oh I found something. Yes, its silliness all right

http://www.btwebworld.com/sinet/STIN495v1p0.pdf

"The Street DSLAM is served with a fibre back to the exchange to carry the
Broadband signals. (The telephone exchange at which the Broadband service
is handed over to BTW is not necessarily the same exchange
providing telephony services to the End User.). The Street DSLAM is
connected to the Street Cabinet using tie pair cables. VDSL 2 is used to
carry the Broadband over the copper pair from the Street Cabinet to the
End Users' premises. See the diagram below. "

(actually there is no diagram below. There is one above: ed)

"The Public Switched Telephony Service (PSTN) is unaffected by this new
technology and continues to be supplied over the copper pair between the
Exchange and End Users's premises."

The key thing seems to be that they may decide to string fibre from a
completely different exchange to the one that feeds the voice.

Yet another instance of BT failing to bite the bullet and go all VOIP..

which seems relatively insane really.


It seems like a brilliantly simple way of slowly rolling out faster
broadband to me.

--

Brian Gregory. (In the UK)

To email me remove the letter vee.


  #9  
Old August 25th 11, 12:49 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Steve Hayes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default FTTC query

On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 16:37:45 +0100, Invalid wrote:

[snip]


The relative degree of insanity depends on your other
priorities/constraints.

If you want (have to?) to maintain voice services (for emergency use) in
the event of power outages, then under a fibre scheme for voice the FTTC
cabs would need biggish batteries and even the capability to be
generator supplied.

If you presume that most people do not run their router off a UPS, then
you can (reasonably safely) assume that allowing the fibre cab to go
down in a power outage will not be a big deal - and hence make the
roll-out a lot cheaper.

Interestingly OFCOM has a current consultation document at

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/bin...ons/superfast-

broadb
and/summary/battery_condoc.pdf

requesting comments on the idea that FTTP installations should have the
requirements for battery backup reduced from four hours to one hour in
the interest of roll out cost.

I wonder who is going to be responsible for the long term maintenance
and end of life exchange of all those batteries?

In the US Verizon's FiOS product provides voice (but not Voip) for 8
hours in the event of power outages, but it makes the battery the
subscribers property/problem (one year warranty on the lead acid battery
- then if you need to replace it its US$46.00 to buy and you do it
yourself.)

http://www22.verizon.com/residential...neral+support/

get
ting+started/questionsone/121498.htm


I've been wondering about this for some years. As I see it:

The ability of landline phones to work without customer premises power is
an incidental feature of the common-battery system of phone lines that
must now be a century or so old. When this system was devised, I doubt
that the designers even considered this as a requirement. Rather, there
was the high cost/unavailability of devices that could have used customer
premises power and the fact that quite a lot of potential customers
didn't have an electric supply of any kind.

If we were starting from scratch now, I doubt that the designers would
introduce significant additional cost, complexity and possible other
safety issues merely so the phones would work without customer power.

After all, many people only have cordless phones that stop working when
the lights go out. They also have mobile phones that, most of the time,
are a better bet in an emergency. Signal permitting, you can use your
mobile from anywhere in the building, e.g. from a room you're trapped in
by a fire. There are no wires to burn through. Intruders can't stop you
dialling 999 by cutting a wire or putting an extension phone off-hook.

A pure fibre system is certainly safer when it comes to lightning strikes
while shorted batteries are a potential cause of fires. These two factors
alone balance out some cases where someone needed to and could have made
an emergency call over a landline during a power failure and couldn't
have used a mobile instead. Then there's the whole area of cost-benefit
analysis...

The issue is probably only that the ambulance chasers will be out looking
for the few people who can claim that they suffered a loss because they
couldn't make a landline call.


--
Steve Hayes, South Wales, UK -- remove colours from address
  #10  
Old August 25th 11, 02:42 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 503
Default FTTC query


"Brian Gregory [UK]" wrote in message ...
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message ...
Peter Crosland wrote:
Can any Openreach engineer tell me if the voice part of the signal to the FTTC cabinet is over copper or fibre. This may sound a
silly question but I have had conflicting answers to the question and would like a definitive answer TIA

Peter Crosland

Do you mean from the exchange, or from the customer premises?

It would seem a bit silly to maintain pairs from the exchange to the cabinet rather than muxing them over the fibre...mind you,
silliness is rife.


But you'd need so much more equipment in the cabinet.

And the work needed when people switched their broadband between FTTC and normal would be much much more.


I assume the cabinet to premises is good old copper pairs though with phones on the baseband.

Oh I found something. Yes, its silliness all right

http://www.btwebworld.com/sinet/STIN495v1p0.pdf

"The Street DSLAM is served with a fibre back to the exchange to carry the Broadband signals. (The telephone exchange at which
the Broadband service is handed over to BTW is not necessarily the same exchange
providing telephony services to the End User.). The Street DSLAM is connected to the Street Cabinet using tie pair cables. VDSL 2
is used to carry the Broadband over the copper pair from the Street Cabinet to the End Users' premises. See the diagram below. "

(actually there is no diagram below. There is one above: ed)

"The Public Switched Telephony Service (PSTN) is unaffected by this new technology and continues to be supplied over the copper
pair between the Exchange and End Users's premises."

The key thing seems to be that they may decide to string fibre from a completely different exchange to the one that feeds the
voice.

Yet another instance of BT failing to bite the bullet and go all VOIP..

which seems relatively insane really.


It seems like a brilliantly simple way of slowly rolling out faster broadband to me.


OK, a good argument has been made for not MUXing the voice lines over the fibre
but that doesn't mean that they need the extravagance of an exchange pair per sub
as several FTTC customers could have their voice MUXed and powered over a single copper exchange side pair.
providing room is available for the DACS hardware in the cabinet.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%


 




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