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Copyright download question



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 26th 12, 08:44 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 620
Default Copyright download question

I've been asked to advise about an accusation that a user has downloaded
copyright material.

The accusation comes from the ISP, but in turn they rely on a "Take Down
notice from an organisation or individual which states they are the
rights holder, or represent the rights holder" - without saying who this
is. Later the line:

Complainant: Twentieth Century Fox Film Corporation Infringement
Timestamp: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 15:07:26 GMT Infringers IP Address:
xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
Protocol: P2P

.... appears. So presumably the rights holder is Twentieth Century Fox.

Cleary a router could be configured to block all P2P traffic - but this
does seem a tad unfair - surely not all P2P traffic is copyright
material? One would not seek to ban all cars from the road simply
because some are driven in exceess of the speed limit ...?

What was the mechanism that the complainant used to identify that the
copyright material was carried through the ISP's network? Could not the
ISP apply the same mechanism to block the copyright traffic?

-- Graham J
  #2  
Old June 26th 12, 08:55 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Jeremy Nicoll - news posts
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 47
Default Copyright download question

Graham J [email protected] wrote:

What was the mechanism that the complainant used to identify that the
copyright material was carried through the ISP's network?


I would guess, in the first place, the server logs from the system that was
sending the copyrighted material to your user.

Could not the ISP apply the same mechanism to block the copyright traffic?


How would the ISP know what the traffic contained?

(Unless they can both read data AND somehow tell it's copyright as opposed
to public domain.)


--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to replacing "aaa" by "284".
  #3  
Old June 26th 12, 09:22 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 620
Default Copyright download question

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote:
Graham J [email protected] wrote:

What was the mechanism that the complainant used to identify that the
copyright material was carried through the ISP's network?


I would guess, in the first place, the server logs from the system that was
sending the copyrighted material to your user.

Could not the ISP apply the same mechanism to block the copyright traffic?


How would the ISP know what the traffic contained?

(Unless they can both read data AND somehow tell it's copyright as opposed
to public domain.)



So if the copyright material exists on a machine that is part of a P2P
network, how does the copyright owner get to see those logs?

And if the ISP can't do it for the reasons that you've explained, how is
the user supposed to identify that the material is copyright?

--
Graham J



  #4  
Old June 26th 12, 10:07 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Jono
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,539
Default Copyright download question

Graham J formulated on Tuesday :
Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote:
Graham J [email protected] wrote:

What was the mechanism that the complainant used to identify that the
copyright material was carried through the ISP's network?


I would guess, in the first place, the server logs from the system that was
sending the copyrighted material to your user.

Could not the ISP apply the same mechanism to block the copyright traffic?


How would the ISP know what the traffic contained?

(Unless they can both read data AND somehow tell it's copyright as opposed
to public domain.)



So if the copyright material exists on a machine that is part of a P2P
network, how does the copyright owner get to see those logs?


They offer the material for download using P2P and therefore have a log
of the downloader's IP address.


And if the ISP can't do it for the reasons that you've explained, how is the
user supposed to identify that the material is copyright?


The user knew. You know the user knew. We know you know the user
knew...


  #5  
Old June 26th 12, 10:13 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Jeremy Nicoll - news posts
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 47
Default Copyright download question

Graham J [email protected] wrote:

So if the copyright material exists on a machine that is part of a P2P
network, how does the copyright owner get to see those logs?


Court case & seizure of machines?

And if the ISP can't do it for the reasons that you've explained, how is
the user supposed to identify that the material is copyright?


Common sense?

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to replacing "aaa" by "284".
  #6  
Old June 26th 12, 10:37 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Denis McMahon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default Copyright download question

On Tue, 26 Jun 2012 20:44:53 +0100, Graham J wrote:

What was the mechanism that the complainant used to identify that the
copyright material was carried through the ISP's network? Could not the
ISP apply the same mechanism to block the copyright traffic?


Most likely, part of the torrent swarm was a host operated by the rights
holder or one of their agents acting as a honey trap to identify the ip
addresses of other systems taking part in the torrent swarm.

Arguably by taking part in the torrent swarm to obtain ip addresses the
rights holder or their agent is in fact making the copyright material to
anyone who wants it, in a similar style to an undercover police officer
offering to sell you illegal materials (narcotics, anti aircraft
missiles, fissionable material ...) but I don't think the UK courts have
actually considered this point yet.

Rgds

Denis McMahon
  #7  
Old June 27th 12, 02:19 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
The Natural Philosopher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,728
Default Copyright download question

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote:
Graham J [email protected] wrote:

What was the mechanism that the complainant used to identify that the
copyright material was carried through the ISP's network?


I would guess, in the first place, the server logs from the system that was
sending the copyrighted material to your user.

Could not the ISP apply the same mechanism to block the copyright traffic?


How would the ISP know what the traffic contained?

Deep Pan Pizza inspection..

(Unless they can both read data AND somehow tell it's copyright as opposed
to public domain.)

They probably can.



--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.
  #8  
Old June 27th 12, 02:20 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
The Natural Philosopher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,728
Default Copyright download question

Graham J wrote:
Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote:
Graham J [email protected] wrote:

What was the mechanism that the complainant used to identify that the
copyright material was carried through the ISP's network?


I would guess, in the first place, the server logs from the system
that was
sending the copyrighted material to your user.

Could not the ISP apply the same mechanism to block the copyright
traffic?


How would the ISP know what the traffic contained?

(Unless they can both read data AND somehow tell it's copyright as
opposed
to public domain.)



So if the copyright material exists on a machine that is part of a P2P
network, how does the copyright owner get to see those logs?

Copyright owner sees his materail up and asks ISP to see who is
grabbiong it.

And if the ISP can't do it for the reasons that you've explained, how is
the user supposed to identify that the material is copyright?



--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.
  #9  
Old June 27th 12, 01:56 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Mark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 525
Default Copyright download question

On Tue, 26 Jun 2012 20:44:53 +0100, Graham J [email protected] wrote:

I've been asked to advise about an accusation that a user has downloaded
copyright material.

The accusation comes from the ISP, but in turn they rely on a "Take Down
notice from an organisation or individual which states they are the
rights holder, or represent the rights holder" - without saying who this
is. Later the line:

Complainant: Twentieth Century Fox Film Corporation Infringement
Timestamp: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 15:07:26 GMT Infringers IP Address:
xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
Protocol: P2P

... appears. So presumably the rights holder is Twentieth Century Fox.

Cleary a router could be configured to block all P2P traffic - but this
does seem a tad unfair - surely not all P2P traffic is copyright
material? One would not seek to ban all cars from the road simply
because some are driven in exceess of the speed limit ...?

What was the mechanism that the complainant used to identify that the
copyright material was carried through the ISP's network? Could not the
ISP apply the same mechanism to block the copyright traffic?


Has the user downloaded the alleged material? If not, it's probably a
try-on to extort money from the user (cf. ACS law).

P2P can (and is) used for legitimate purposes such as the legal
distribution of software and patches.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

  #10  
Old June 27th 12, 02:53 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 620
Default Copyright download question

Mark wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jun 2012 20:44:53 +0100, Graham J [email protected] wrote:

I've been asked to advise about an accusation that a user has downloaded
copyright material.

The accusation comes from the ISP, but in turn they rely on a "Take Down
notice from an organisation or individual which states they are the
rights holder, or represent the rights holder" - without saying who this
is. Later the line:

Complainant: Twentieth Century Fox Film Corporation Infringement
Timestamp: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 15:07:26 GMT Infringers IP Address:
xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
Protocol: P2P

... appears. So presumably the rights holder is Twentieth Century Fox.

Cleary a router could be configured to block all P2P traffic - but this
does seem a tad unfair - surely not all P2P traffic is copyright
material? One would not seek to ban all cars from the road simply
because some are driven in exceess of the speed limit ...?

What was the mechanism that the complainant used to identify that the
copyright material was carried through the ISP's network? Could not the
ISP apply the same mechanism to block the copyright traffic?


Has the user downloaded the alleged material? If not, it's probably a
try-on to extort money from the user (cf. ACS law).


Almost certainly. The connection is used by eastern European farm
workers - so their grasp of the concept of copyright as described in the
english language is probably a bit thin.


P2P can (and is) used for legitimate purposes such as the legal
distribution of software and patches.


Exactly my point.

How can we block illegal downloads without blocking legitimate uses of P2P?

--
Graham J



 




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