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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

How to provide backup to ADSL?



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 20th 12, 01:21 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Justin C
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default How to provide backup to ADSL?


I've been asked by my employer to find out about
having spare network connectivity should something
happen to our main broadband connection.

Our web-shop is hosted by a datacentre, and it uses a
VPN to check stock availability with a database on a
machine on our local network.

When, on the odd occaision that it does, our ADSL
connection goes down our customers are frustrated by
not having stock availabilty information. We'd like
to have an alternative internet connection to provide
a route for the VPN.

Having another ISP provide ADSL on another phone line
would give us a back-up should our ISP have a
problem, but that doesn't get around other
possibilities - like someone digging up the road and
disturbing cables. The ideal would be cable run in to
a different part of our building, from a different
exchange, and a different ISP. But that sounds like
it'd be *really* expensive.

So, what other options are there? How about
microwave? It's not easy to find providers in our
area.

I don't want to go to our ISP they're too big to care
about small fry like us. I don't want to go to a
telco either because they'll sell us what they have
regardless of whether it's what we want.

Does anyone here have any experience with this sort
of thing? Or any suggestions?

All replies will be gratefully received.

The ideal would be a connection that is up 24/7,
through a different ISP, and traffic to/from our
network would be able to take either route. I don't
even know if that's possible. If it's not, then the
back-up route has got to automatically step up when
the main connection fails.

Thank you for any help or advice you can provide.


Justin.

--
Justin C, by the sea.
  #2  
Old July 20th 12, 02:28 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
The Natural Philosopher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,728
Default How to provide backup to ADSL?

Justin C wrote:
I've been asked by my employer to find out about
having spare network connectivity should something
happen to our main broadband connection.

Our web-shop is hosted by a datacentre, and it uses a
VPN to check stock availability with a database on a
machine on our local network.

When, on the odd occaision that it does, our ADSL
connection goes down our customers are frustrated by
not having stock availabilty information. We'd like
to have an alternative internet connection to provide
a route for the VPN.

Having another ISP provide ADSL on another phone line
would give us a back-up should our ISP have a
problem, but that doesn't get around other
possibilities - like someone digging up the road and
disturbing cables. The ideal would be cable run in to
a different part of our building, from a different
exchange, and a different ISP. But that sounds like
it'd be *really* expensive.

So, what other options are there? How about
microwave? It's not easy to find providers in our
area.

I don't want to go to our ISP they're too big to care
about small fry like us. I don't want to go to a
telco either because they'll sell us what they have
regardless of whether it's what we want.

Does anyone here have any experience with this sort
of thing? Or any suggestions?

All replies will be gratefully received.

The ideal would be a connection that is up 24/7,
through a different ISP, and traffic to/from our
network would be able to take either route. I don't
even know if that's possible. If it's not, then the
back-up route has got to automatically step up when
the main connection fails.

Thank you for any help or advice you can provide.


Justin.

A better solution would be to move the database from your site to a
virtual machine located in a datacenter.

It is almost impossible to provide proper redundant routing to a machine
without huge expense.


I.e. you could buy a pair of 2Mbps leased lines from tow plaes and run
boundary routing over that on a big Cisco or summat. Shouldnt be much
less than 100k to install and 20k a year.

Buying a virtual machine on a resilient datacenter is less than 200 a year.

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.
  #3  
Old July 20th 12, 03:19 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
www.GymRatZ.co.uk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 245
Default How to provide backup to ADSL?

On 20/07/2012 13:21, Justin C wrote:

Having another ISP provide ADSL on another phone line
would give us a back-up should our ISP have a
problem, but that doesn't get around other
possibilities - like someone digging up the road and
disturbing cables.


2 options that are economically viable as far as I can see.
Having my own shop being completely reliant on internet connection I
originally had a cable connection via Telewest and ADSL backup.

Then dumped cable as Virgin Media became more temperamental and gave
problems with the VOIP lines and took up a 2nd ADSL/phone line.

Admittedly both are delivered from the same exchange but through
non-related ISP's i.e. BeThere for 24/7 data and a 6.99 jobbie from
Plusnet for failover.

Both connections are "always on" but router fires all traffic to WAN1
(Bethere) as priority only going to Wan 2 should Wan1 fail.

The 2nd option that bypasses the exchange altogether is to have a router
that allows a mobile broadband dongle. which can then be added into the
list of failover options.

http://www.draytek.co.uk/products/vigor3200.html
for example but I'm sure there are plenty of others that can perform the
same tricks.
http://www.draytek.co.uk/products/comparison.html





--
http://www.GymRatZ.co.uk - Fitness+Gym Equipment.
http://www.bodysolid-gym-equipment.co.uk
http://www.trade-price-supplements.co.uk
http://www.water-rower.co.uk
  #4  
Old July 20th 12, 03:58 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Chris Davies
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 444
Default How to provide backup to ADSL?

Justin C wrote:
Our web-shop is hosted by a datacentre, and it uses a
VPN to check stock availability with a database on a
machine on our local network.


When, on the odd occaision that it does, our ADSL
connection goes down our customers are frustrated by
not having stock availabilty information.


I assume there are good reasons for not having the database in your
data-centre. What about replicating the relevant tables from your local
machine to the data-centre? (You could always prefer to access the master
database, with a fall-back to the copy.)


The ideal would be a connection that is up 24/7,
through a different ISP, and traffic to/from our
network would be able to take either route.


If your existing ADSL connection's uptime doesn't approach this level
then it's probably time to look for a more reliable deal. You won't get
100% uptime from any provider, though, and actually you'll be lucky to
get any sort of useful SLA with ADSL (you might get something with SDSL -
I haven't looked).

If your data-centre allows "mobile" devices, investigate whether you've
got enough bandwidth across 3G. There are definitely routers available
that will provide a fall-back via the air.

Chris
  #5  
Old July 20th 12, 07:34 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
alexd
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,765
Default How to provide backup to ADSL?

Justin C (for it is he) wrote:

Our web-shop is hosted by a datacentre, and it uses a
VPN to check stock availability with a database on a
machine on our local network.


When, on the odd occaision that it does, our ADSL
connection goes down our customers are frustrated by
not having stock availabilty information.


My suggestion would be to pull/push stock figures periodically [eg hourly]
so that a live connection isn't necessary. This approach may not be
appropriate to what you're selling, of course.

Having another ISP provide ADSL on another phone line
would give us a back-up should our ISP have a
problem, but that doesn't get around other
possibilities - like someone digging up the road and
disturbing cables.


The possibility that they might both be dug up is not, IMHO, a good enough
reason /not/ to get a second broadband if internet access is critical to
you. IME, most common causes of broadband failure a end-user errors, last
mile quality, last metre misconfiguration and whole-ISP screwups. Copper
theft and backhoe fade are a long way down the list. YMMV of course.

The ideal would be cable run in to
a different part of our building, from a different
exchange, and a different ISP. But that sounds like
it'd be *really* expensive.


You can buy diversely routed connectivity but it tends to be Subject To
Survey and commensurately expensive :-)

So, what other options are there? How about
microwave? It's not easy to find providers in our
area.


Something avoiding BT's infrastructure would be ideal if that's what worries
you. Plenty of routers support 3G connections, although not every mobile ISP
allows IPsec VPN traffic. AAISP will even give you the same IP address on 3G
as fallback for one of their fixed line internet products.

I don't want to go to our ISP they're too big to care
about small fry like us.


Change ISP.

The ideal would be a connection that is up 24/7,
through a different ISP, and traffic to/from our
network would be able to take either route. I don't
even know if that's possible.


Eminently possible.

--
http://ale.cx/ (AIM:troffasky) )
19:03:05 up 190 days, 21:36, 6 users, load average: 0.15, 0.21, 0.32
Qua illic est reprehendit, illic est a vindicatum

  #6  
Old July 21st 12, 10:23 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
stephen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 381
Default How to provide backup to ADSL?

On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 13:21:59 +0100, Justin C
wrote:


I've been asked by my employer to find out about
having spare network connectivity should something
happen to our main broadband connection.

Our web-shop is hosted by a datacentre, and it uses a
VPN to check stock availability with a database on a
machine on our local network.

When, on the odd occaision that it does, our ADSL
connection goes down our customers are frustrated by
not having stock availabilty information. We'd like
to have an alternative internet connection to provide
a route for the VPN.

Having another ISP provide ADSL on another phone line
would give us a back-up should our ISP have a
problem, but that doesn't get around other
possibilities - like someone digging up the road and
disturbing cables. The ideal would be cable run in to
a different part of our building, from a different
exchange, and a different ISP. But that sounds like
it'd be *really* expensive.


How about a private network link so you are not dependent on Internet
connectivity?

Go and ask. The question should be on the "FAQ" list for your
datacentre provider.

If you are close to the datacentre then a BT Ethernet link may be a
possiblility - anything from a few 1k upwards, but since it is
delivered on fibre from different equipment in the exchange you have
as much separation between the 2 services as you are likely to get
without dual entry.

BT have a new MPLS layer 2 services - a "logical Ethernet" between
sites in the UK - most locations can be connected and if you have had
fibre access before it should not need a dig to install

you rent the tail circuits into the "cloud" and a pipe across it.

https://www.btwholesale.com/pages/do...l_05.06.08.pdf

Note - I am not pushing BT (and this is a wholesale product anyway) -
but you can get this from resellers and other carriers.

Ironically some of these services use ADSL into a private bandwidth
system (ie not Internet) as a reasonably separate backup......

So, what other options are there? How about
microwave? It's not easy to find providers in our
area.


BT, C&W and others support microwave point to point access, but mainly
into private network type links.

It is good for backup where it is available, but you need a dish,
often on a mast and line of sight to an equipped PoP

3G broadband may well work, but you need a way to bring up the link -
a Cisco router can have a 3G card installed and could be set up to
prefer ADSL and use 3G as a backup.....

I don't want to go to our ISP they're too big to care
about small fry like us. I don't want to go to a
telco either because they'll sell us what they have
regardless of whether it's what we want.


Cable would be independent, since VM dont go thru the BT exchange and
use their own ducts.

Or if you can get a fibre FTTH / FTTC type product where some of the
plumbing is separate, and use 2 different ISPs

The VPN links are going to need careful setup - set both up to be
continuous, and then have routing within the VPN to detect a failed
link and reroute traffic onto the alternate.

Does anyone here have any experience with this sort
of thing? Or any suggestions?


Private networking is not cheap (probably going to set up back 1000s
per month), but pervasive Ethernet access & MPLS has brought down the
costs.

a lot depends on what unreliability costs you - 1 way to think of
private / resilient networks is as a sort of insurance against a
fault.

All replies will be gratefully received.

The ideal would be a connection that is up 24/7,
through a different ISP, and traffic to/from our
network would be able to take either route. I don't
even know if that's possible. If it's not, then the
back-up route has got to automatically step up when
the main connection fails.


ignoring what you end up with for your 2nd link, then using dual VPNs
and routing between then is feasible and fairly easy to do.

The big "secret" is you need dynamic routing of some sort, so a
consumer router is the wrong tool

In practice the choice often comes down to "cisco" or "something that
isnt a cisco" - based on being able to find people with the right
background, training, support etc......

Thank you for any help or advice you can provide.


Justin.


Good luck
--
Regards

- replace xyz with ntl
  #7  
Old July 22nd 12, 09:37 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 620
Default How to provide backup to ADSL?

Stephen wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 13:21:59 +0100, Justin C
wrote:


I've been asked by my employer to find out about
having spare network connectivity should something
happen to our main broadband connection.

Our web-shop is hosted by a datacentre, and it uses a
VPN to check stock availability with a database on a
machine on our local network.

When, on the odd occaision that it does, our ADSL
connection goes down our customers are frustrated by
not having stock availabilty information. We'd like
to have an alternative internet connection to provide
a route for the VPN.

Having another ISP provide ADSL on another phone line
would give us a back-up should our ISP have a
problem, but that doesn't get around other
possibilities - like someone digging up the road and
disturbing cables. The ideal would be cable run in to
a different part of our building, from a different
exchange, and a different ISP. But that sounds like
it'd be *really* expensive.


Depending on your exact geographic location:

1) Identify a nearby location where you can set up ADSL to a different
telephone exchange.

2) Set up a wireless link between that location and your office.
Engenius offer point-to-point wireless devices that claim 30km range.
You may have to put them on top of a 100ft pole ...

3) At your office use a load-balancing router (e.g. Vigor 2830) and
connect its WAN2 port to the wireless link.

3) Configure the VPN to use the alternative connection if the primary
connection fails.

--
Graham J


  #8  
Old July 22nd 12, 11:49 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Dave Saville
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 138
Default How to provide backup to ADSL?

I recall two stories from *way* back.

1) A business in London's city - they had lines from two different
exchanges, different kit etc. etc. After it was all up and running
they found out the two exchanges were in the *same* BT building!

2) IBM Winchester ran an external service bureau so they also had
redundancy in all directions - but all the cables came in through the
same manhole in the main drive :-)
--
Regards
Dave Saville
  #9  
Old July 22nd 12, 11:54 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Moonraker
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default How to provide backup to ADSL?

On 22/07/2012 11:49, Dave Saville wrote:
I recall two stories from *way* back.

1) A business in London's city - they had lines from two different
exchanges, different kit etc. etc. After it was all up and running
they found out the two exchanges were in the *same* BT building!

2) IBM Winchester ran an external service bureau so they also had
redundancy in all directions - but all the cables came in through the
same manhole in the main drive :-)

If, or perhaps when, London goes t*ts up, possibly with flooding, there
will hardly be any BB in the country. Why it is so centralised is beyond
belief.

--
Residing on low ground in North Staffordshire
  #10  
Old July 22nd 12, 12:10 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
The Natural Philosopher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,728
Default How to provide backup to ADSL?

Dave Saville wrote:
I recall two stories from *way* back.

1) A business in London's city - they had lines from two different
exchanges, different kit etc. etc. After it was all up and running
they found out the two exchanges were in the *same* BT building!

2) IBM Winchester ran an external service bureau so they also had
redundancy in all directions - but all the cables came in through the
same manhole in the main drive :-)


I remember the internet in the UK being sliced in half. Lots of
different ISPs had used multiple redundant routes via different backbone
carriers.

Unfortunately ALL of them used fibre running up the M1 that a digger
sliced in half..



--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.
 




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