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What price aluminium?



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 18th 12, 12:29 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Flop
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 94
Default What price aluminium?


My ISP estimates that my Download speed should be 47.7Mbps and Upload as
10.9Mbps.

In practice I achieve 27Mbps and 6Mbps.

An Outreach engineer visited to check the disparity. No obvious faults
in my equipment or exchange to cabinet or cabinet to house.

His summary was that from the cabinet (600m) to the house, it was
aluminium wire and this would explain the lower speeds.

How much difference is there between aluminium and copper?

Flop

  #2  
Old August 18th 12, 12:36 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
George Weston
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 467
Default What price aluminium?

On 18/08/2012 12:29, Flop wrote:

My ISP estimates that my Download speed should be 47.7Mbps and Upload as
10.9Mbps.

In practice I achieve 27Mbps and 6Mbps.

An Outreach engineer visited to check the disparity. No obvious faults
in my equipment or exchange to cabinet or cabinet to house.

His summary was that from the cabinet (600m) to the house, it was
aluminium wire and this would explain the lower speeds.

How much difference is there between aluminium and copper?

Flop

Quite a bit!

BT went through a phase of installing aluminium probably about 20-30
years ago, when copper was at a particularly high price.
They reverted to copper later, when they eventually realised that
aluminium was inferior to copper as a conductor and caused problems with
transmission.
However, they haven't made any commitment to replace existing aluminium
with copper, so it looks like you're stuffed, unless you have a bit of
influence with BT - or have the ability to complain long and hard until
they get fed up with you and do something about it (it might work but
don't hold your breath!)

George
  #3  
Old August 18th 12, 12:38 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
The Natural Philosopher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,728
Default What price aluminium?

Flop wrote:

My ISP estimates that my Download speed should be 47.7Mbps and Upload as
10.9Mbps.

In practice I achieve 27Mbps and 6Mbps.

An Outreach engineer visited to check the disparity. No obvious faults
in my equipment or exchange to cabinet or cabinet to house.

His summary was that from the cabinet (600m) to the house, it was
aluminium wire and this would explain the lower speeds.

How much difference is there between aluminium and copper?


A fair bit over a distance, but its not te difference between
'aluminium' and 'copper' its between 'that vile cheap lossy aluminium
cable BT used once' and 'the standard copper cable that they used before
and after'

Flop



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc'-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
  #4  
Old August 18th 12, 12:54 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Don
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default What price aluminium?

The Natural Philosopher typed:

How much difference is there between aluminium and copper?


A fair bit over a distance, but its not te difference between
'aluminium' and 'copper' its between 'that vile cheap lossy aluminium
cable BT used once' and 'the standard copper cable that they used before
and after'

I guess that a signficant part of the problem is down to the original and
continuing quality of the joints - aluminium to copper is notoriously
problematic, particularly if exposed to water and/or air. Aluminium to
aluminium is not much better.

--
Don


  #5  
Old August 18th 12, 12:56 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Flop
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 94
Default What price aluminium?

On 18/08/2012 12:36, George Weston wrote:
On 18/08/2012 12:29, Flop wrote:

My ISP estimates that my Download speed should be 47.7Mbps and Upload as
10.9Mbps.

In practice I achieve 27Mbps and 6Mbps.

An Outreach engineer visited to check the disparity. No obvious faults
in my equipment or exchange to cabinet or cabinet to house.

His summary was that from the cabinet (600m) to the house, it was
aluminium wire and this would explain the lower speeds.

How much difference is there between aluminium and copper?

Flop

Quite a bit!

BT went through a phase of installing aluminium probably about 20-30
years ago, when copper was at a particularly high price.
They reverted to copper later, when they eventually realised that
aluminium was inferior to copper as a conductor and caused problems with
transmission.
However, they haven't made any commitment to replace existing aluminium
with copper, so it looks like you're stuffed, unless you have a bit of
influence with BT - or have the ability to complain long and hard until
they get fed up with you and do something about it (it might work but
don't hold your breath!)

George


Thanks - but no thanks.

The Outreach engineer lives just a few houses away. We both have
aluminium; we both bypass a cabinet 50m away for one 600m away.

If he cannot short-circuit BT or the cabinet, I do not stand a chance :-(

Flop

  #6  
Old August 18th 12, 01:12 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
PeterC
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 393
Default What price aluminium?

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 12:38:18 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Flop wrote:

My ISP estimates that my Download speed should be 47.7Mbps and Upload as
10.9Mbps.

In practice I achieve 27Mbps and 6Mbps.

An Outreach engineer visited to check the disparity. No obvious faults
in my equipment or exchange to cabinet or cabinet to house.

His summary was that from the cabinet (600m) to the house, it was
aluminium wire and this would explain the lower speeds.

How much difference is there between aluminium and copper?


A fair bit over a distance, but its not te difference between
'aluminium' and 'copper' its between 'that vile cheap lossy aluminium
cable BT used once' and 'the standard copper cable that they used before
and after'

About 30 years ago a 415(?)kV line near here was renewed using compacted
aluminium (are we slightly straying into Russ Andrews territory here?) and
it was noticeably noisy, hissing quite loudly in some conditions.
I wonder if BT used the same stuff or just ordinary ally.

That noise must have taken a fair bit of power (loss) to generate it, so the
equivalent could presumably happen with telephone wire.

--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway
  #7  
Old August 18th 12, 02:28 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Don
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default What price aluminium?

On Saturday, August 18, 2012 1:12 PM [GMT+1=CET],
PeterC wrote:

About 30 years ago a 415(?)kV line near here was renewed using compacted
aluminium (are we slightly straying into Russ Andrews territory here?) and
it was noticeably noisy, hissing quite loudly in some conditions.
I wonder if BT used the same stuff or just ordinary ally.

That noise must have taken a fair bit of power (loss) to generate it, so
the equivalent could presumably happen with telephone wire.


If you mean a 400kV (400,000 volt) overhead line, running on steel lattice
towers, then the hissing (and power loss) are due to corona discharge
because of the voltage* it is running at. If you were foolish enough to
hold a flourescent tube vertically beneath such a line it would light,
because of the electric field in the air. Leakage current, caused by
pollution on the surface of the insulators and corona discharge from the
bare conductors, results in hissing and (relavitely small) power loss,
particularly in damp conditions. It is nothing to do with the conductor
material, and only slightly dependent on its cross-section.

If you mean a 415V overhead line, running on wooden poles, that is domestic
mains voltage and there will be no significant leakage and no noise.

If you get any electric-discharge-induced acoustic noise from an insulated
overhead telephone line running at 50v dc then there's something seriously
wrong!

* Voltage between conductors is 400,000 volts, voltage of each conductor to
earth is 230,000 volts.

--
Don


  #8  
Old August 18th 12, 03:51 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
George Weston
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 467
Default What price aluminium?

On 18/08/2012 14:28, Don wrote:
On Saturday, August 18, 2012 1:12 PM [GMT+1=CET],
wrote:

About 30 years ago a 415(?)kV line near here was renewed using compacted
aluminium (are we slightly straying into Russ Andrews territory here?) and
it was noticeably noisy, hissing quite loudly in some conditions.
I wonder if BT used the same stuff or just ordinary ally.

That noise must have taken a fair bit of power (loss) to generate it, so
the equivalent could presumably happen with telephone wire.


If you mean a 400kV (400,000 volt) overhead line, running on steel lattice
towers, then the hissing (and power loss) are due to corona discharge
because of the voltage* it is running at. If you were foolish enough to
hold a flourescent tube vertically beneath such a line it would light,


[snip]

That takes me back to my Royal Signals days, where the instructor did
just that.
Not under a power line, I hasten to add, but under the antenna of
transmitting field radio.
Gets the point across nicely.

George
  #9  
Old August 18th 12, 05:10 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
UnsteadyKen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 27
Default What price aluminium?


George Weston wrote...

That takes me back to my Royal Signals days, where the instructor did
just that.
Not under a power line, I hasten to add, but under the antenna of
transmitting field radio.
Gets the point across nicely.

Same here, 8 Sigs 1973.

--
Ken O'Meara
  #10  
Old August 18th 12, 07:49 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
The Natural Philosopher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,728
Default What price aluminium?

Don wrote:
The Natural Philosopher typed:
How much difference is there between aluminium and copper?

A fair bit over a distance, but its not te difference between
'aluminium' and 'copper' its between 'that vile cheap lossy aluminium
cable BT used once' and 'the standard copper cable that they used before
and after'

I guess that a signficant part of the problem is down to the original and
continuing quality of the joints - aluminium to copper is notoriously
problematic, particularly if exposed to water and/or air. Aluminium to
aluminium is not much better.

Apparently not.When I was in the CI the guys at Guernsey telecoms
chortled about Jersey who were all cabled with alumnium because the
actual aluminium cables were smaller and had lesss insulation on so the
RF attenuation was much higher 'fine for phones but they wont be able to
do 2Mbps from their one exchange'


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc'-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
 




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