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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

Problem With Broadband Disconnecting



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 26th 12, 02:05 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Mr Simon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default Problem With Broadband Disconnecting

Hi all,

Would appreciate any input on the following!

A friend is having repeated problems with their broadband disconnecting.

We've tried a replacement router, filter and RJ-11 lead - and things
persist!

It seems at the moment, the problem occurs when a fax is sent/received
(broadband is on their fax line, no voice calls made from it). We haven't
yet tested a normal voice call on the line but suspect it might cause the
same behaviour. i.e., the problem is any made/received call, rather than it
specifically being the fax machine.

Also, during the time the fault has occurred, PC's/network gear have been
replaced too. The only common entity in the whole setup since we've had the
fault is the line and the fax machine.

Of what I think are the likely candidates, causing the fault, which is more
likely??

a) Filter - this has been swapped, could two be faulty though..
b) Fax machine - need to eliminate this by trying a phone on the line..

We've been on to BT Internet who insist the line is okay. Does that sound
likely and is this likely an internal fault, or are they just making excuses
and we should try and have things escalated to OpenReach?



  #2  
Old September 26th 12, 03:37 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 620
Default Problem With Broadband Disconnecting

Mr Simon wrote:
Hi all,

Would appreciate any input on the following!

A friend is having repeated problems with their broadband disconnecting.

We've tried a replacement router, filter and RJ-11 lead - and things
persist!

It seems at the moment, the problem occurs when a fax is sent/received
(broadband is on their fax line, no voice calls made from it). We haven't
yet tested a normal voice call on the line but suspect it might cause the
same behaviour. i.e., the problem is any made/received call, rather than it
specifically being the fax machine.

Also, during the time the fault has occurred, PC's/network gear have been
replaced too. The only common entity in the whole setup since we've had the
fault is the line and the fax machine.

Of what I think are the likely candidates, causing the fault, which is more
likely??

a) Filter - this has been swapped, could two be faulty though..
b) Fax machine - need to eliminate this by trying a phone on the line..

We've been on to BT Internet who insist the line is okay. Does that sound
likely and is this likely an internal fault, or are they just making excuses
and we should try and have things escalated to OpenReach?


This is a well known fault that BT will not be able to find without
sending out an engineer.

It is probably caused by a corroded joint somwhere between your premises
and the exchange, which behaves like a crude semiconductor diode. When
a voice call is started or terminated the DC that flows alters the
performance of this crude diode which in turn alters the level of some
of the frequencies used by ADSL. The ADSL router and the DSLAM at the
exchange don't like this change so re-negotiate the connection - hence
the line drop.

This is easy to confirm - connect a phone and make a voice call while
watching the ADSL router status page - you will see the connection drop,
followed by renegotiation. It might behave differently with incoming
calls - the ring current might be sufficient to provoke the fault before
you answer.

It is just possible the fault is in the fax machine itself - again easy
to eliminate this.

Regardless of who your ISP is, you have to convince them that the fault
is not in your equipment or wiring. You've done most of that already,
but you should test from the test point in the master socket (which
isolates all extension wiring). Your ISP should then call Openreach.

The Openreach engineer will set out to demonstrate the fault with his
own equipment. If he can't he will go away and BT will bill you. If he
can prove that the fault exists, but cannot correct it within 2 hours he
will go away to his next job and you will have to re-book the call.
These are not easy faults to find, so expect to re-book several times.

Most of this is easier done if you use a professional ISP: Andrews &
Arnold, or Zen Internet, for example. Otherwise you will spend
frustrating hours talking to an Indian call centre. So my suggestion is
to change ISP first, then report the problem via your new ISP.

Good luck.

--
Graham J










  #3  
Old September 26th 12, 04:30 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Stephen Wolstenholme
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default Problem With Broadband Disconnecting

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:37:39 +0100, Graham J [email protected] wrote:

Most of this is easier done if you use a professional ISP: Andrews &
Arnold, or Zen Internet, for example.


I have had no trouble since I switched to BT Internet. They are very
good at using their own equipment.

Steve

--
Neural network software applications, help and support.

EasyNN-plus. Neural Networks plus. http://www.easynn.com
SwingNN. Forecast with Neural Networks. http://www.swingnn.com
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  #4  
Old September 26th 12, 05:23 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 93
Default Problem With Broadband Disconnecting

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:05:23 +0100, "Mr Simon"
wrote:

Hi all,

Would appreciate any input on the following!

A friend is having repeated problems with their broadband disconnecting.

We've tried a replacement router, filter and RJ-11 lead - and things
persist!

It seems at the moment, the problem occurs when a fax is sent/received
(broadband is on their fax line, no voice calls made from it). We haven't
yet tested a normal voice call on the line but suspect it might cause the
same behaviour. i.e., the problem is any made/received call, rather than it
specifically being the fax machine.

Also, during the time the fault has occurred, PC's/network gear have been
replaced too. The only common entity in the whole setup since we've had the
fault is the line and the fax machine.

Of what I think are the likely candidates, causing the fault, which is more
likely??

a) Filter - this has been swapped, could two be faulty though..
b) Fax machine - need to eliminate this by trying a phone on the line..

We've been on to BT Internet who insist the line is okay. Does that sound
likely and is this likely an internal fault, or are they just making excuses
and we should try and have things escalated to OpenReach?



I assume that during these disconnection events your router is
indicating that it has lost sync. This will be a normally steady LED
starting to flash then going steady again followed by the Internet
returning. This is probably the case but you need to confirm this.

I am picturing this as:
Line in to a master socket
Filter plugged into socket
Fax plugged into phone socket on filter
Router plugged into the RG11 socket on the same filter

And crucially there are no other extension sockets, bells, alarm
systems etc. wired to that master socket.

Am I correct in all that?

Next thing to do is plug a phone into the line, (or use the fax if
it's a phone as well) and without the router connected listen very
carefully for any crackles, buzzes or other noises that shouldn't be
there. It is useful to dial 17070 and chose option 2 when doing this.

The logic of doing that is if you can demonstrate the fault is
affecting voice calls you can call BT faults directly, assuming BT are
your calls supplier and be pretty certain that it will fix your
broadband too.

--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
  #5  
Old September 26th 12, 06:16 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Bob Eager
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 177
Default Problem With Broadband Disconnecting

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 16:30:53 +0100, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:37:39 +0100, Graham J [email protected] wrote:

Most of this is easier done if you use a professional ISP: Andrews &
Arnold, or Zen Internet, for example.


I have had no trouble since I switched to BT Internet. They are very
good at using their own equipment.


But it isn't their own equipment...it belongs to BT OpenReach, a
completely separate company....with whom they have to deal at arm's
length, just as for any other ISP.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor
  #6  
Old September 26th 12, 07:16 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Woody
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 211
Default Problem With Broadband Disconnecting

"Mr Simon" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

Would appreciate any input on the following!

A friend is having repeated problems with their broadband
disconnecting.

We've tried a replacement router, filter and RJ-11 lead - and
things persist!

It seems at the moment, the problem occurs when a fax is
sent/received (broadband is on their fax line, no voice calls
made from it). We haven't yet tested a normal voice call on the
line but suspect it might cause the same behaviour. i.e., the
problem is any made/received call, rather than it specifically
being the fax machine.

Also, during the time the fault has occurred, PC's/network gear
have been replaced too. The only common entity in the whole
setup since we've had the fault is the line and the fax
machine.

Of what I think are the likely candidates, causing the fault,
which is more likely??

a) Filter - this has been swapped, could two be faulty though..
b) Fax machine - need to eliminate this by trying a phone on
the line..

We've been on to BT Internet who insist the line is okay. Does
that sound likely and is this likely an internal fault, or are
they just making excuses and we should try and have things
escalated to OpenReach?






Is the fax machine fed through a filter?

Don't fall into the common trap: the filtering in an ADSL
splitter is on the telephone side so that RF (i.e. ADSL) doesn't
reach the phone. The broadband to the router/modem goes straight
through.


--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com


  #7  
Old September 26th 12, 07:17 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
The Natural Philosopher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,728
Default Problem With Broadband Disconnecting

Mr Simon wrote:
Hi all,

Would appreciate any input on the following!

A friend is having repeated problems with their broadband disconnecting.

We've tried a replacement router, filter and RJ-11 lead - and things
persist!

It seems at the moment, the problem occurs when a fax is sent/received
(broadband is on their fax line, no voice calls made from it). We haven't
yet tested a normal voice call on the line but suspect it might cause the
same behaviour. i.e., the problem is any made/received call, rather than it
specifically being the fax machine.


Thats improper filtering on the fax line then


Also, during the time the fault has occurred, PC's/network gear have been
replaced too. The only common entity in the whole setup since we've had the
fault is the line and the fax machine.

Of what I think are the likely candidates, causing the fault, which is more
likely??

a) Filter - this has been swapped, could two be faulty though..


more likely you have something miswired and the filter isn't doing anything.

b) Fax machine - need to eliminate this by trying a phone on the line..


If the filter is good that shouldnt make a difference.

We've been on to BT Internet who insist the line is okay. Does that sound
likely and is this likely an internal fault, or are they just making excuses
and we should try and have things escalated to OpenReach?


One reason to ditch BT as an internet supplier is that they always away
that.






--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc'-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
  #8  
Old September 26th 12, 07:46 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Mr Simon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default Problem With Broadband Disconnecting

"Graham J" [email protected] wrote:


Thanks for the detailed reply :-)

I'll be sure to check things out with a normal phone, confirming whether
it's ANY call that does it, and eliminating the fax at the same time. Wish
I'd tried that already and would be a lot more confident blaming the line!

Will do all that first, then go back to BT and see what they come back with.

Most of this is easier done if you use a professional ISP: Andrews &
Arnold, or Zen Internet, for example. Otherwise you will spend
frustrating hours talking to an Indian call centre. So my suggestion is
to change ISP first, then report the problem via your new ISP.


If only - honestly tried. Get fed up of hearing "BT said so, so it must be
right".

S.


  #9  
Old September 26th 12, 07:46 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Mr Simon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default Problem With Broadband Disconnecting

"Graham." wrote:

I assume that during these disconnection events your router is
indicating that it has lost sync.


Yes - I should've pointed that out in first post!

This will be a normally steady LED
starting to flash then going steady again followed by the Internet
returning. This is probably the case but you need to confirm this.

I am picturing this as:
Line in to a master socket
Filter plugged into socket
Fax plugged into phone socket on filter
Router plugged into the RG11 socket on the same filter


Exactly.

And crucially there are no other extension sockets, bells, alarm
systems etc. wired to that master socket.
Am I correct in all that?


Spot on.

Next thing to do is plug a phone into the line, (or use the fax if
it's a phone as well) and without the router connected listen very
carefully for any crackles, buzzes or other noises that shouldn't be
there. It is useful to dial 17070 and chose option 2 when doing this.

The logic of doing that is if you can demonstrate the fault is
affecting voice calls you can call BT faults directly, assuming BT are
your calls supplier and be pretty certain that it will fix your
broadband too.


Should've also said in first post - quality of line is fine :-(

S.


  #10  
Old September 26th 12, 07:57 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Roderick Stewart
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 135
Default Problem With Broadband Disconnecting

In article , Graham J wrote:
The Openreach engineer will set out to demonstrate the fault with his
own equipment. If he can't he will go away and BT will bill you. If he
can prove that the fault exists, but cannot correct it within 2 hours he
will go away to his next job and you will have to re-book the call.
These are not easy faults to find, so expect to re-book several times.


That can't be right. If a company is providing something which is faulty,
then it should be their responsibility until it is fixed, and they should
organise whatever is necessary until it is. The customer shouldn't have to
do their admin for them. How do they justify having to re-book?

Most of this is easier done if you use a professional ISP: Andrews &
Arnold, or Zen Internet, for example. Otherwise you will spend
frustrating hours talking to an Indian call centre. So my suggestion is
to change ISP first, then report the problem via your new ISP.


Agreed. I had a similar problem, sorted by Zen. They're not the cheapest,
but if an internet service is important to you it's worth dealing with
people who speak English and know what they're doing.

Rod.
--

 




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