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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

Noise performance of Vigor 2800 and 2820



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 12th 13, 10:29 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 620
Default Noise performance of Vigor 2800 and 2820

During the period February 2006 to July 2007 I bought several Vigor 2800
routers. They have all worked reliably in a variety of situations until
the last couple of months.

Now three of them, used on long lines where the loop attenuation is
greater than about 55 dB and downstream sync speeds 2 mbits/sec or less,
show very unreliable connections with high error rates - almost as many
corrected blocks as received blocks, so about 100% error rate.
Upgrading to the most recent firmware has not reduced the error rate.

In each of these three cases I have replaced them with the more modern
V2820 or V2830. The more modern routers show typically about 1% error
rate, with occasional excursions to 10%.

Is it likely that there is an ageing process which increases
susceptibility to noise?

Or is it simply that these lines have become more noisy, and the more
modern routers simply tolerate it better?

Has anybody any similar experience to report?

TIA

--
Graham J




  #2  
Old November 13th 13, 07:48 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Woody
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 750
Default Noise performance of Vigor 2800 and 2820

"Graham J" [email protected] wrote in message
...
During the period February 2006 to July 2007 I bought several
Vigor 2800 routers. They have all worked reliably in a variety
of situations until the last couple of months.

Now three of them, used on long lines where the loop
attenuation is greater than about 55 dB and downstream sync
speeds 2 mbits/sec or less, show very unreliable connections
with high error rates - almost as many corrected blocks as
received blocks, so about 100% error rate. Upgrading to the
most recent firmware has not reduced the error rate.

In each of these three cases I have replaced them with the more
modern V2820 or V2830. The more modern routers show typically
about 1% error rate, with occasional excursions to 10%.

Is it likely that there is an ageing process which increases
susceptibility to noise?

Or is it simply that these lines have become more noisy, and
the more modern routers simply tolerate it better?

Has anybody any similar experience to report?

TIA

--



There is no doubt that more modern components using smaller and
smaller technology in these applications are getting electrically
quieter. Having said that, components do age, specifically
electrolytic capacitors which dry out with time and become less
and less effective. You only have to listen to an old radio -
particularly valve radios - to notice an increase in audible hum
due to poorly performing electrolytic capacitors in the power
supply. It could be that this is the case with your routers
especially if they have been contained in a warm environment, say
a closed equipment rack, during their working lives.

Before anyone says it I agree that many such units these days use
switched mode power supplies - even the wall-wart variety - and
because of the high operating frequencies there is less need for
large capacitors, but nevertheless they are still there and they
still dry out. A quick Google suggests that the 2820 is an
external supply so why not try replacing that to see what
happens - they can often be had for a tenner or less?


--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com


  #3  
Old November 13th 13, 08:21 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Vir Campestris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 255
Default Noise performance of Vigor 2800 and 2820

On 13/11/2013 07:48, Woody wrote:
A quick Google suggests that the 2820 is an
external supply so why not try replacing that to see what
happens - they can often be had for a tenner or less?


It might of course be the same type on the two models

Andy
  #4  
Old November 13th 13, 08:46 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Peter Crosland
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,463
Default Noise performance of Vigor 2800 and 2820

On 12/11/2013 22:29, Graham J wrote:
During the period February 2006 to July 2007 I bought several Vigor 2800
routers. They have all worked reliably in a variety of situations until
the last couple of months.

Now three of them, used on long lines where the loop attenuation is
greater than about 55 dB and downstream sync speeds 2 mbits/sec or less,
show very unreliable connections with high error rates - almost as many
corrected blocks as received blocks, so about 100% error rate. Upgrading
to the most recent firmware has not reduced the error rate.

In each of these three cases I have replaced them with the more modern
V2820 or V2830. The more modern routers show typically about 1% error
rate, with occasional excursions to 10%.

Is it likely that there is an ageing process which increases
susceptibility to noise?

Or is it simply that these lines have become more noisy, and the more
modern routers simply tolerate it better?


It is not a big enough sample to draw conclusions from. My experience
with Vigor was that they did not perform well on long and noisy lines
but again not a large sample. It might be worth trying a different brand
of router with a different chipset in it as the latter can make a huge
difference to the performance.


--
Peter Crosland
  #5  
Old November 13th 13, 08:56 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
The Natural Philosopher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,728
Default Noise performance of Vigor 2800 and 2820

On 13/11/13 07:48, Woody wrote:
"Graham J" [email protected] wrote in message
...
During the period February 2006 to July 2007 I bought several
Vigor 2800 routers. They have all worked reliably in a variety
of situations until the last couple of months.

Now three of them, used on long lines where the loop
attenuation is greater than about 55 dB and downstream sync
speeds 2 mbits/sec or less, show very unreliable connections
with high error rates - almost as many corrected blocks as
received blocks, so about 100% error rate. Upgrading to the
most recent firmware has not reduced the error rate.

In each of these three cases I have replaced them with the more
modern V2820 or V2830. The more modern routers show typically
about 1% error rate, with occasional excursions to 10%.

Is it likely that there is an ageing process which increases
susceptibility to noise?

Or is it simply that these lines have become more noisy, and
the more modern routers simply tolerate it better?

Has anybody any similar experience to report?

TIA

--



There is no doubt that more modern components using smaller and
smaller technology in these applications are getting electrically
quieter. Having said that, components do age, specifically
electrolytic capacitors which dry out with time and become less
and less effective. You only have to listen to an old radio -
particularly valve radios - to notice an increase in audible hum
due to poorly performing electrolytic capacitors in the power
supply. It could be that this is the case with your routers
especially if they have been contained in a warm environment, say
a closed equipment rack, during their working lives.

Before anyone says it I agree that many such units these days use
switched mode power supplies - even the wall-wart variety - and
because of the high operating frequencies there is less need for
large capacitors, but nevertheless they are still there and they
still dry out. A quick Google suggests that the 2820 is an
external supply so why not try replacing that to see what
happens - they can often be had for a tenner or less?


silicon also ages.

But I think that in general its the technology moving forwards. And the
winter noise figures worsening :-)

I keep years of statistics sampled ever 5 minutes on my ADSL - the
annual graph shows (for a relatively constant SNR) the actual lines
speeds maxing out in summer and getting worse in winter. At given line
speed that equates to as much as 2-3dB difference between the two. Its
2db worse at night than by day, too - AM radio clutter.

So my guess is its not capacitors, its either chips going down slowly,
or its a simple case of winter is coming, SNRs are worse, and the new
sets have better chips to deal with it.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc'-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

  #6  
Old November 13th 13, 09:43 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Peter Able
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 114
Default Noise performance of Vigor 2800 and 2820


"Graham J" [email protected] wrote in message
...
During the period February 2006 to July 2007 I bought several Vigor 2800
routers. They have all worked reliably in a variety of situations until
the last couple of months.

Now three of them, used on long lines where the loop attenuation is
greater than about 55 dB and downstream sync speeds 2 mbits/sec or less,
show very unreliable connections with high error rates - almost as many
corrected blocks as received blocks, so about 100% error rate. Upgrading
to the most recent firmware has not reduced the error rate.

In each of these three cases I have replaced them with the more modern
V2820 or V2830. The more modern routers show typically about 1% error
rate, with occasional excursions to 10%.

Is it likely that there is an ageing process which increases
susceptibility to noise?

Or is it simply that these lines have become more noisy, and the more
modern routers simply tolerate it better?

Has anybody any similar experience to report?

TIA

--
Graham J



Everything decays with time - us included - except, perhaps, the virulence
of environmental noise. For this reason it might be worth checking for
firmware upgrades for the older routers.

PA


  #7  
Old November 13th 13, 10:11 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Woody
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 750
Default Noise performance of Vigor 2800 and 2820

"Peter Able" [email protected] wrote in message
o.uk...

"Graham J" [email protected] wrote in message
...
During the period February 2006 to July 2007 I bought several
Vigor 2800 routers. They have all worked reliably in a
variety of situations until the last couple of months.

Now three of them, used on long lines where the loop
attenuation is greater than about 55 dB and downstream sync
speeds 2 mbits/sec or less, show very unreliable connections
with high error rates - almost as many corrected blocks as
received blocks, so about 100% error rate. Upgrading to the
most recent firmware has not reduced the error rate.

In each of these three cases I have replaced them with the
more modern V2820 or V2830. The more modern routers show
typically about 1% error rate, with occasional excursions to
10%.

Is it likely that there is an ageing process which increases
susceptibility to noise?

Or is it simply that these lines have become more noisy, and
the more modern routers simply tolerate it better?

Has anybody any similar experience to report?

TIA

--
Graham J



Everything decays with time - us included - except, perhaps,
the virulence of environmental noise. For this reason it might
be worth checking for firmware upgrades for the older routers.



Er, read again. He's already done that.


--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com


  #8  
Old November 13th 13, 12:21 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Peter Able
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 114
Default Noise performance of Vigor 2800 and 2820


"Woody" wrote in message
...


Er, read again. He's already done that.

Woody


Oops!

PA


  #9  
Old November 13th 13, 05:09 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Tony
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Noise performance of Vigor 2800 and 2820

On 13/11/2013 07:48, Woody wrote:

Before anyone says it I agree that many such units these days use
switched mode power supplies - even the wall-wart variety - and
because of the high operating frequencies there is less need for
large capacitors, but nevertheless they are still there and they
still dry out.


Speaking of wall-wart switched mode power supplies, I'm noticing these
things put out more high frequency audible noise than older power
supplies, which typically had a lower pitched hum or no noise at all.

I suppose power efficiency comes at a price.
  #10  
Old November 13th 13, 06:53 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Woody
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 750
Default Noise performance of Vigor 2800 and 2820

"Tony" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 13/11/2013 07:48, Woody wrote:

Before anyone says it I agree that many such units these days
use
switched mode power supplies - even the wall-wart variety -
and
because of the high operating frequencies there is less need
for
large capacitors, but nevertheless they are still there and
they
still dry out.


Speaking of wall-wart switched mode power supplies, I'm
noticing these things put out more high frequency audible noise
than older power supplies, which typically had a lower pitched
hum or no noise at all.

I suppose power efficiency comes at a price.




You must have good hearing if you can hear 100KHz!!


--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com


 




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