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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

REIN that BT can't resolve



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 8th 14, 08:57 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 620
Default REIN that BT can't resolve

In Burston, Norfolk, user with ADSL from Zen Internet.

Awful noise problem: SNR margin fluctuates wildly from 11dB to 23 dB,
loop attenuation 56dB, download speed 1.8Mbits/sec. Vigor 2800 router
with long line firmware just about gives useable service.

Zen see significant errors - so reported fault to Openreach.

Openreach engineer visits early December, knows of REIN problem in area,
sets 12dB SNR margin to mitigate problem.

Openreach report several different visits to general area; then say they
know what the problem is, but they can't do anything about it or tell us
what it is.

London to Norwich railway is about 600metres distant. Also nearby is a
mental hospital with security fences and whatnot.

Is it likely that either of these are sources?

User in adjacent property (with ADSL from BT) sees similar noise problem.

Anybody here know of other users in Burston with similar problem? If so
perhaps we can collectively apply pressure to resolve it ...

--
Graham J
  #2  
Old January 8th 14, 09:36 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
kráftéé
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,765
Default REIN that BT can't resolve


"Graham J" [email protected] wrote in message
...
In Burston, Norfolk, user with ADSL from Zen Internet.

Awful noise problem: SNR margin fluctuates wildly from 11dB to 23 dB, loop
attenuation 56dB, download speed 1.8Mbits/sec. Vigor 2800 router with
long line firmware just about gives useable service.

Zen see significant errors - so reported fault to Openreach.

Openreach engineer visits early December, knows of REIN problem in area,
sets 12dB SNR margin to mitigate problem.

Openreach report several different visits to general area; then say they
know what the problem is, but they can't do anything about it or tell us
what it is.

London to Norwich railway is about 600metres distant. Also nearby is a
mental hospital with security fences and whatnot.

Is it likely that either of these are sources?

User in adjacent property (with ADSL from BT) sees similar noise problem.

Anybody here know of other users in Burston with similar problem? If so
perhaps we can collectively apply pressure to resolve it ...


The only thing Openreach can do is investigate and _if_ they can localise
the source ask the owner of the equipment (causing the problem) to change,
repair or stop using it. They have no legal rights to force that person to
stop using it.

Thankfully most of these people also have problems with their DSL service
and are grateful for the problem being resolved but there are occasions
where they refuse to do anything and unfortunately Openreach can't do
anything more in these cases. Also they can't inform you about where the
problem appears to be coming from as you may visit and break someone's knee
caps.

The unfortunate thing is that DSL, in all shapes and sizes, is not a
protected service, so if it works great but if it does get interfered with
tough, unless _you_ wish to pay OFCOM to investigate and even then you may
not get very far as it has to be proved that it is interfering with a
protected service (normally public AM stations).

Remember REIN is not a line/card/filter/router fault, it is an interference
type signal being injected into the Openreach network and seeing as it
doesn't normally affect analogue calls there is little anybody can do if the
originator refuse to co-operate (I've only known one case in last several
years).

IF it is REIN the problem is normally locating the source, especially with
the newer apartment blocks and business complexes. Unfortunately REIN is
often claimed to be the problem when it's is not. Last case I know of, I
had to drive 20 miles to site and whilst talking to the end user I was told
that they had been informed by the 'engineer' that it had to be REIN as the
circuit wouldn't sync at the PCP (??????? REIN is a local issue and so
doesn't affect the Eside network), another was when the 'engineers' (note
plural) couldn't trace the network to the house so it had to be a REIN
fault.

REIN is often touted around as an easy way out and if an area gets
stigmatised then unfortunately there are those who only do a half hearted
attempt to repair a problem as 'it's being caused by REIN and everybody
knows it'.

As for you locality everything you listed could be the problem but then
again it could be somebody's wall wart power supply fo what ever (phone,
router, digital picture frame etc etc the list appears to be endless
nowadays). It it's only been a recent problem it could be someones festival
lighting, it may also be someones energy saving light bulb (yes just the
one).

Sorry it not's not what you wanted to hear but those are the facts (such as
they are)





  #3  
Old January 8th 14, 10:33 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
The Natural Philosopher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,728
Default REIN that BT can't resolve

On 08/01/14 21:36, kraftéé wrote:

"Graham J" [email protected] wrote in message
...
In Burston, Norfolk, user with ADSL from Zen Internet.

Awful noise problem: SNR margin fluctuates wildly from 11dB to 23 dB,
loop attenuation 56dB, download speed 1.8Mbits/sec. Vigor 2800 router
with long line firmware just about gives useable service.

Zen see significant errors - so reported fault to Openreach.

Openreach engineer visits early December, knows of REIN problem in
area, sets 12dB SNR margin to mitigate problem.

Openreach report several different visits to general area; then say
they know what the problem is, but they can't do anything about it or
tell us what it is.

London to Norwich railway is about 600metres distant. Also nearby is
a mental hospital with security fences and whatnot.

Is it likely that either of these are sources?

User in adjacent property (with ADSL from BT) sees similar noise problem.

Anybody here know of other users in Burston with similar problem? If
so perhaps we can collectively apply pressure to resolve it ...


The only thing Openreach can do is investigate and _if_ they can
localise the source ask the owner of the equipment (causing the
problem) to change, repair or stop using it. They have no legal rights
to force that person to stop using it.

Thankfully most of these people also have problems with their DSL
service and are grateful for the problem being resolved but there are
occasions where they refuse to do anything and unfortunately Openreach
can't do anything more in these cases. Also they can't inform you about
where the problem appears to be coming from as you may visit and break
someone's knee caps.

The unfortunate thing is that DSL, in all shapes and sizes, is not a
protected service, so if it works great but if it does get interfered
with tough, unless _you_ wish to pay OFCOM to investigate and even then
you may not get very far as it has to be proved that it is interfering
with a protected service (normally public AM stations).

Remember REIN is not a line/card/filter/router fault, it is an
interference type signal being injected into the Openreach network and
seeing as it doesn't normally affect analogue calls there is little
anybody can do if the originator refuse to co-operate (I've only known
one case in last several years).

IF it is REIN the problem is normally locating the source, especially
with the newer apartment blocks and business complexes. Unfortunately
REIN is often claimed to be the problem when it's is not. Last case I
know of, I had to drive 20 miles to site and whilst talking to the end
user I was told that they had been informed by the 'engineer' that it
had to be REIN as the circuit wouldn't sync at the PCP (??????? REIN is
a local issue and so doesn't affect the Eside network), another was when
the 'engineers' (note plural) couldn't trace the network to the house so
it had to be a REIN fault.

REIN is often touted around as an easy way out and if an area gets
stigmatised then unfortunately there are those who only do a half
hearted attempt to repair a problem as 'it's being caused by REIN and
everybody knows it'.

As for you locality everything you listed could be the problem but then
again it could be somebody's wall wart power supply fo what ever (phone,
router, digital picture frame etc etc the list appears to be endless
nowadays). It it's only been a recent problem it could be someones
festival lighting, it may also be someones energy saving light bulb (yes
just the one).

Sorry it not's not what you wanted to hear but those are the facts (such
as they are)


you MAY be able to track it using an AM radio with a ferrite rod aerial.
Tune between stations and rotate the set looking for noise...






--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc'-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

  #4  
Old January 8th 14, 11:00 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 620
Default REIN that BT can't resolve

kraftéé wrote:

[snip]



Problem has been getting slowly worse since summer 2013.

Are you saying that Openreach are fibbing about this being REIN?

If it is electrical noise should it be the Radio Communications Agency
that gets involved in fixing it? Do they not have legal powers?

--
Graham J





  #5  
Old January 9th 14, 12:02 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 876
Default REIN that BT can't resolve

On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 20:57:53 +0000, Graham J [email protected] wrote:

In Burston, Norfolk, user with ADSL from Zen Internet.

Awful noise problem: SNR margin fluctuates wildly from 11dB to 23 dB,
loop attenuation 56dB, download speed 1.8Mbits/sec. Vigor 2800 router
with long line firmware just about gives useable service.

Zen see significant errors - so reported fault to Openreach.

Openreach engineer visits early December, knows of REIN problem in area,
sets 12dB SNR margin to mitigate problem.

Openreach report several different visits to general area; then say they
know what the problem is, but they can't do anything about it or tell us
what it is.

London to Norwich railway is about 600metres distant. Also nearby is a
mental hospital with security fences and whatnot.

Is it likely that either of these are sources?

User in adjacent property (with ADSL from BT) sees similar noise problem.

Anybody here know of other users in Burston with similar problem? If so
perhaps we can collectively apply pressure to resolve it ...



Both of those sources are potential candidates, as TNP suggests, have
a drive/walk round with an AM radio.




--
Graham.


%Profound_observation%
  #6  
Old January 9th 14, 06:32 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
rbel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 49
Default REIN that BT can't resolve

On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 00:02:13 +0000, Graham. wrote:



Both of those sources are potential candidates, as TNP suggests, have
a drive/walk round with an AM radio.


Set to 612Khz.

Have they indicated the times that the interference is occurring? If
so that may narrow down the periods that you will need to wander
around the neighbourhood with your radio - been there, done that, got
the rather funny looks from the neighbours.

Openreach do have specialist REIN engineers - the two I had visit
here were quite clued up and soon dismissed REIN as a contributory
factor in my case.
--
rbel
  #7  
Old January 9th 14, 06:43 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Peter Crosland
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,463
Default REIN that BT can't resolve

On 08/01/2014 20:57, Graham J wrote:
In Burston, Norfolk, user with ADSL from Zen Internet.

Awful noise problem: SNR margin fluctuates wildly from 11dB to 23 dB,
loop attenuation 56dB, download speed 1.8Mbits/sec. Vigor 2800 router
with long line firmware just about gives useable service.

Zen see significant errors - so reported fault to Openreach.

Openreach engineer visits early December, knows of REIN problem in area,
sets 12dB SNR margin to mitigate problem.

Openreach report several different visits to general area; then say they
know what the problem is, but they can't do anything about it or tell us
what it is.

London to Norwich railway is about 600metres distant. Also nearby is a
mental hospital with security fences and whatnot.

Is it likely that either of these are sources?

User in adjacent property (with ADSL from BT) sees similar noise problem.

Anybody here know of other users in Burston with similar problem? If so
perhaps we can collectively apply pressure to resolve it ...


The person with the expertise and equipment to solve the problem is the
BT/OR Precision Test Officer. Getting BT get him involved will not be
easy as there are not many of them and their job list tends to be very
long. You may have to escalate it up the chain of command. I did it by
writing a polite, but very firm, letter to the Chairman. Not guaranteed
but worth a try.


--
Peter Crosland
  #8  
Old January 9th 14, 07:44 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 620
Default REIN that BT can't resolve

rbel wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 00:02:13 +0000, Graham. wrote:



Both of those sources are potential candidates, as TNP suggests, have
a drive/walk round with an AM radio.


Set to 612Khz.

Have they indicated the times that the interference is occurring? If
so that may narrow down the periods that you will need to wander
around the neighbourhood with your radio - been there, done that, got
the rather funny looks from the neighbours.

Openreach do have specialist REIN engineers - the two I had visit
here were quite clued up and soon dismissed REIN as a contributory
factor in my case.


It's continuous, so not obviously domestic lighting or machinery.

--
Graham J

  #9  
Old January 9th 14, 07:47 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 620
Default REIN that BT can't resolve

Peter Crosland wrote:
On 08/01/2014 20:57, Graham J wrote:
In Burston, Norfolk, user with ADSL from Zen Internet.

Awful noise problem: SNR margin fluctuates wildly from 11dB to 23 dB,
loop attenuation 56dB, download speed 1.8Mbits/sec. Vigor 2800 router
with long line firmware just about gives useable service.

Zen see significant errors - so reported fault to Openreach.

Openreach engineer visits early December, knows of REIN problem in area,
sets 12dB SNR margin to mitigate problem.

Openreach report several different visits to general area; then say they
know what the problem is, but they can't do anything about it or tell us
what it is.

London to Norwich railway is about 600metres distant. Also nearby is a
mental hospital with security fences and whatnot.

Is it likely that either of these are sources?

User in adjacent property (with ADSL from BT) sees similar noise problem.

Anybody here know of other users in Burston with similar problem? If so
perhaps we can collectively apply pressure to resolve it ...


The person with the expertise and equipment to solve the problem is the
BT/OR Precision Test Officer. Getting BT get him involved will not be
easy as there are not many of them and their job list tends to be very
long. You may have to escalate it up the chain of command. I did it by
writing a polite, but very firm, letter to the Chairman. Not guaranteed
but worth a try.


Did you do so as a BT customer?

Should Zen be persuaded to do so?

Given that OR state they can't do anything about it, does that mean they
have already had the PTO look as the case?

--
Graham J


  #10  
Old January 10th 14, 01:25 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 876
Default REIN that BT can't resolve

On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 19:47:08 +0000, Graham J [email protected] wrote:

Peter Crosland wrote:
On 08/01/2014 20:57, Graham J wrote:
In Burston, Norfolk, user with ADSL from Zen Internet.

Awful noise problem: SNR margin fluctuates wildly from 11dB to 23 dB,
loop attenuation 56dB, download speed 1.8Mbits/sec. Vigor 2800 router
with long line firmware just about gives useable service.

Zen see significant errors - so reported fault to Openreach.

Openreach engineer visits early December, knows of REIN problem in area,
sets 12dB SNR margin to mitigate problem.

Openreach report several different visits to general area; then say they
know what the problem is, but they can't do anything about it or tell us
what it is.

London to Norwich railway is about 600metres distant. Also nearby is a
mental hospital with security fences and whatnot.

Is it likely that either of these are sources?

User in adjacent property (with ADSL from BT) sees similar noise problem.

Anybody here know of other users in Burston with similar problem? If so
perhaps we can collectively apply pressure to resolve it ...


The person with the expertise and equipment to solve the problem is the
BT/OR Precision Test Officer. Getting BT get him involved will not be
easy as there are not many of them and their job list tends to be very
long. You may have to escalate it up the chain of command. I did it by
writing a polite, but very firm, letter to the Chairman. Not guaranteed
but worth a try.


Did you do so as a BT customer?

Should Zen be persuaded to do so?

Given that OR state they can't do anything about it, does that mean they
have already had the PTO look as the case?



In theory a BT customer has the same (nil) direct access to Openreach
as does a Zen customer.


--
Graham.


%Profound_observation%
 




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