A Broadband and ADSL forum. BroadbanterBanter

Welcome to BroadbanterBanter.

You are currently viewing as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today.

Go Back   Home » BroadbanterBanter forum » Newsgroup Discussions » uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband)
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

Problematic rural broadband connection



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old March 4th 15, 01:29 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
JohnDavidson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default Problematic rural broadband connection

A colleague lives out in the countryside and has a small home office with a
business broadband connection & telephony service provided by a well-known
two-letter acronym. The broadband has been very poor for a long time
(speeds of - Mbps and frequent drop-outs) which haven't been addressed by
replacement routers: they have half a dozen in a cupboard, along with
countless filters.

The service provider is telling them that their area isn't due for an
upgrade in the foreseeable future and hasn't offered any practical solution
so far, but they're sending out someone next week to chat about installing a
telephony upgrade and have promised that this person can talk to them about
broadband as well.

So, in advance of that meeting, what can I reasonably advise my colleague to
do/ask?

Can he, for example, enquire whether the lines are aluminium, and if so ask
for them to be replaced by copper (and will that make a significant
difference)? Is it possible that there is DACS on the line, and can this be
removed?

Any suggestions welcome!




---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

  #2  
Old March 4th 15, 08:56 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 343
Default Problematic rural broadband connection

On 04/03/2015 01:29, JohnDavidson wrote:

A colleague lives out in the countryside and has a small home office
with a business broadband connection & telephony service provided by a
well-known two-letter acronym. The broadband has been very poor for a
long time (speeds of - Mbps and frequent drop-outs) which haven't been
addressed by replacement routers: they have half a dozen in a cupboard,
along with countless filters.


Some statistics from a half decent router or a log from Routerstats
light would not go amiss. Particularly the speed and SNR over a 24-48
hour period so that any diurnal variation or glitches can be seen.

Sub 1Mbps is indicative of either an incredibly long cable run to the
exchange, a dry joint or corroded aluminium joints in the signal path.

Check the exchange on Sam knows and his number into the BT capabilities
(which will probably say 2Mbps max).

https://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange_search

http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/

A neighbouring village has this problem and they are on dodgy aluminium.

The service provider is telling them that their area isn't due for an
upgrade in the foreseeable future and hasn't offered any practical
solution so far, but they're sending out someone next week to chat about
installing a telephony upgrade and have promised that this person can
talk to them about broadband as well.


Are there any 3G mobile services available locally or any equivalent of
Superfast North Yorkshire putting have-not villages onto microwave?

Data charges on 3G sting a bit but he can't be using all that much if
his speed is as low as you claim.

So, in advance of that meeting, what can I reasonably advise my
colleague to do/ask?

Can he, for example, enquire whether the lines are aluminium, and if so
ask for them to be replaced by copper (and will that make a significant
difference)? Is it possible that there is DACS on the line, and can
this be removed?


DACS is impossible if ADSL works at all. It used to screw up dialup
modems completely though. Just about all grannies in our village are
DACSd (anyone without broadband) - there is no spare copper.

Any suggestions welcome!


What sort of speeds do his neighbours experience?

Only other solution for a faster connection in the middle of nowhere is
satellite but the latency is terrible and the price high. First thing is
look to see if there is a local terrestrial microwave alternative
service BT will move heaven and earth to kill off such competition so if
there is something like that available that is a useful lever.
(or a better alternative service depending on how wedded you are to BT)

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #3  
Old March 4th 15, 09:53 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 723
Default Problematic rural broadband connection

JohnDavidson wrote:
A colleague lives out in the countryside and has a small home office
with a business broadband connection & telephony service provided by a
well-known two-letter acronym. The broadband has been very poor for a
long time (speeds of - Mbps and frequent drop-outs) which haven't been
addressed by replacement routers: they have half a dozen in a cupboard,
along with countless filters.

The service provider is telling them that their area isn't due for an
upgrade in the foreseeable future and hasn't offered any practical
solution so far, but they're sending out someone next week to chat about
installing a telephony upgrade and have promised that this person can
talk to them about broadband as well.

So, in advance of that meeting, what can I reasonably advise my
colleague to do/ask?

Can he, for example, enquire whether the lines are aluminium, and if so
ask for them to be replaced by copper (and will that make a significant
difference)? Is it possible that there is DACS on the line, and can
this be removed?

Any suggestions welcome!


This is a very common scenario.

We need to know from the router the download parameters for sync speed,
SNR margin, and loop attenuatuation, and any error counts that might be
available. If the BT-supplied router does not provide this, then lend
him a router that you are knowledgeable about.

Could you also estimate the distance to the local exchange?

In principle, even if the line is very long it should be possible to get
a reliable connection. This means only losing the connection during a
thunderstorm!

The first step will be to move away from BT to a professional ISP. If
your colleage wants reliability to support his business then the only
option is A&A (Andrews & Arnold - http://www.aa.net.uk/).

Once the broadband service is migrated, get A&A to live up to the
promise on their website:

"We'll fix your line even if you are with another ISP!

If you are migrating your service to us, even though you know you have a
problem with your line, we'll take on the fault. We'll tackle the
problem and get it fixed within one month. If we don't then you can
migrate away and owe us nothing for your migration to us and your
service charges for that month"

In reality this means that A&A will get a BT technician to work on the
line. This technician will be able to identify whether their is
aluminium anywhere in the connection, and ought to be able to resolve
it. Nobody else will be able to do this, and probably they won't even
have reliable information - it's not necessarily documented anywhere.

Once the connection is made reliable, it may be evident that it is not
fast enough. The options then a

1) Satellite - more expensive, potential problems with high latency

2) FTTP via a leased fibre line - typical costs 1,000 per month plus
50,000 set up charge depending on site survey

3) Move house.

It may be possible to set up a point-to-point wireless link to a
colleague who has a decent broadband connection. Line-of-sight is
essential, and distances up to 50km may be possible. Serious costs.

---------

I am intrigued by the "telephony upgrade". I suspect this might be BT
trying to sell a VoIP solution. This is laughable where the underlying
broadband is ineffective!

Your colleague should be very wary of this. It is likely the salesman
will be very strong on the features, and have no knowledge whatever of
the underlying technology. If at all possible you should attend the
meeting to ask awkward technical questions. If you can't be there, it
would be worth briefing an independent expert to help.

Where is your colleague? Somebody here might be able to help ...

--
Graham J



  #4  
Old March 4th 15, 12:49 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
AnthonyL
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 118
Default Problematic rural broadband connection

On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 09:53:13 +0000, Graham J
wrote:


1) Satellite - more expensive, potential problems with high latency

2) FTTP via a leased fibre line - typical costs 1,000 per month plus
50,000 set up charge depending on site survey

3) Move house.

It may be possible to set up a point-to-point wireless link to a
colleague who has a decent broadband connection. Line-of-sight is
essential, and distances up to 50km may be possible. Serious costs.


There are ISP's who offer wireless eg http://ineedbroadband.co.uk/

About 15yrs ago before broadband was available in our rural location
we were able to get on to Pipex wireless, 512k up and down. The later
offerings are somewhat faster and not much more expensive that a
quality fixed line ISP. Line of sight is needed though I had my own
home wireless running over 400m quite reliably for many (~10 yrs).
All requiring line of sight of course.

Any business should be with a quality ISP such as A&A or Zen who have
technical staff who can understand and access relevant data. With
Zen's help I got my speeds up from a flaky 750kbits to a fairly solid
1.5Mbits (yes we are a long way from the exchange and no-one in the
village that I know of is bettering that).



--
AnthonyL
  #5  
Old March 4th 15, 03:19 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Davey
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 585
Default Problematic rural broadband connection

On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 12:49:15 GMT
lid (AnthonyL) wrote:

On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 09:53:13 +0000, Graham J
wrote:


1) Satellite - more expensive, potential problems with high latency

2) FTTP via a leased fibre line - typical costs 1,000 per month
plus 50,000 set up charge depending on site survey

3) Move house.

It may be possible to set up a point-to-point wireless link to a
colleague who has a decent broadband connection. Line-of-sight is
essential, and distances up to 50km may be possible. Serious costs.


There are ISP's who offer wireless eg
http://ineedbroadband.co.uk/

About 15yrs ago before broadband was available in our rural location
we were able to get on to Pipex wireless, 512k up and down. The later
offerings are somewhat faster and not much more expensive that a
quality fixed line ISP. Line of sight is needed though I had my own
home wireless running over 400m quite reliably for many (~10 yrs).
All requiring line of sight of course.

Any business should be with a quality ISP such as A&A or Zen who have
technical staff who can understand and access relevant data. With
Zen's help I got my speeds up from a flaky 750kbits to a fairly solid
1.5Mbits (yes we are a long way from the exchange and no-one in the
village that I know of is bettering that).




I concur about Zen, very good people, willing to spend however long it
takes to sort out a problem. Speaking English (well, Lancashire) is
helpful, too.

--
Davey.

  #6  
Old March 4th 15, 06:00 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 343
Default Problematic rural broadband connection

On 04/03/2015 09:53, Graham J wrote:

I am intrigued by the "telephony upgrade". I suspect this might be BT
trying to sell a VoIP solution. This is laughable where the underlying
broadband is ineffective!


Yes. The sales droids often have no clue at all.
They tried to DACS my dedicated Redcare line once.

Your colleague should be very wary of this. It is likely the salesman
will be very strong on the features, and have no knowledge whatever of
the underlying technology. If at all possible you should attend the
meeting to ask awkward technical questions. If you can't be there, it
would be worth briefing an independent expert to help.


Or at least telling him to sign no new contract and demand a working
rural broadband connection with at least 1Mbps and stable before even
contemplating giving them any more business.

Where is your colleague? Somebody here might be able to help ...

It might be worthwhile talking to your local or district council since
each should have a broadband champion and some are knowledgeable - they
may even know of schemes that are in the pipeline that might help.

I may criticise SFNY from time to time but some of what they do for
non-technical businesses looking to use the net is good...

http://www.sfny.co.uk/

There should be something like this and a rollout map for superfast FTTC
for your rural county too.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #7  
Old March 4th 15, 06:12 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 216
Default Problematic rural broadband connection

On Wed, 4 Mar 2015 01:29:05 -0000, "JohnDavidson"
wrote:

A colleague lives out in the countryside and has a small home office with a
business broadband connection & telephony service provided by a well-known
two-letter acronym. The broadband has been very poor for a long time
(speeds of - Mbps and frequent drop-outs) which haven't been addressed by
replacement routers: they have half a dozen in a cupboard, along with
countless filters.

The service provider is telling them that their area isn't due for an
upgrade in the foreseeable future and hasn't offered any practical solution
so far, but they're sending out someone next week to chat about installing a
telephony upgrade and have promised that this person can talk to them about
broadband as well.

So, in advance of that meeting, what can I reasonably advise my colleague to
do/ask?

Can he, for example, enquire whether the lines are aluminium, and if so ask
for them to be replaced by copper (and will that make a significant
difference)? Is it possible that there is DACS on the line, and can this be
removed?

Any suggestions welcome!




---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com


I wonder what this telephony upgrade is?
One option they may have is to try and find you a different pair of
wires to the exchange and see if they fair any better.
Perhaps that what they meant, but I have doubts.

Are there any crackling or buzzing noises on the basic voice line?

Has all unnecessary internal wiring been disconnected?
ie extension sockets & external bells.
You just want the incoming pair to terminate at a socket with an ADSL
splitterrouter and phone.


--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%
  #8  
Old March 10th 15, 07:35 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Michael Chare
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 60
Default Problematic rural broadband connection

On 04/03/2015 18:12, Graham. wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2015 01:29:05 -0000, "JohnDavidson"
wrote:

A colleague lives out in the countryside and has a small home office with a
business broadband connection & telephony service provided by a well-known
two-letter acronym. The broadband has been very poor for a long time
(speeds of - Mbps and frequent drop-outs) which haven't been addressed by
replacement routers: they have half a dozen in a cupboard, along with
countless filters.

The service provider is telling them that their area isn't due for an
upgrade in the foreseeable future and hasn't offered any practical solution
so far, but they're sending out someone next week to chat about installing a
telephony upgrade and have promised that this person can talk to them about
broadband as well.

So, in advance of that meeting, what can I reasonably advise my colleague to
do/ask?

Can he, for example, enquire whether the lines are aluminium, and if so ask
for them to be replaced by copper (and will that make a significant
difference)? Is it possible that there is DACS on the line, and can this be
removed?

Any suggestions welcome!




---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com


I wonder what this telephony upgrade is?
One option they may have is to try and find you a different pair of
wires to the exchange and see if they fair any better.
Perhaps that what they meant, but I have doubts.

Are there any crackling or buzzing noises on the basic voice line?

Has all unnecessary internal wiring been disconnected?
ie extension sockets & external bells.
You just want the incoming pair to terminate at a socket with an ADSL
splitterrouter and phone.


The master socket should be as close to where the cable enters the
building as possible. The router should be connected to the master
socket using a filtered faceplate.

With regard to the cable to the property, I would expect the best that
can be done is to get Openreach to check, and if necessary remake any
joints. I can't see them replacing any aluminium cable.

A long term solution would be to start a Gigaclear project.


--
Michael Chare
  #9  
Old March 11th 15, 08:12 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 343
Default Problematic rural broadband connection

On 10/03/2015 19:35, Michael Chare wrote:
On 04/03/2015 18:12, Graham. wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2015 01:29:05 -0000, "JohnDavidson"
wrote:

A colleague lives out in the countryside and has a small home office
with a
business broadband connection & telephony service provided by a
well-known
two-letter acronym. The broadband has been very poor for a long time
(speeds of - Mbps and frequent drop-outs) which haven't been
addressed by
replacement routers: they have half a dozen in a cupboard, along with
countless filters.


I wonder what this telephony upgrade is?
One option they may have is to try and find you a different pair of
wires to the exchange and see if they fair any better.
Perhaps that what they meant, but I have doubts.

Are there any crackling or buzzing noises on the basic voice line?

Has all unnecessary internal wiring been disconnected?
ie extension sockets & external bells.
You just want the incoming pair to terminate at a socket with an ADSL
splitterrouter and phone.


The master socket should be as close to where the cable enters the
building as possible. The router should be connected to the master
socket using a filtered faceplate.


Although that isn't a bad idea the difference that a few tens of metres
of extra internal wiring makes compared to the *long* run back to the
exchange makes little or no difference unless you route it parallel to
your Ham radio transmission cable or mains trunking.

I can't see the difference on the stats with or without 30m of high
grade twisted pair between me and the master socket. I tried all
permutations of filtered at the test socket, house wiring and high grade
replacement wiring and the difference was less than 0.1dB which was the
limit of measurement on the modem. No change in sync rate.

I could see a huge difference by applying the bell wire hack to the old
house wiring since we are close to a fairly powerful radio mast. This
trick might be worth a try for the OP in a rural setting.

With regard to the cable to the property, I would expect the best that
can be done is to get Openreach to check, and if necessary remake any
joints. I can't see them replacing any aluminium cable.


They won't. Although they might try a bit harder if there is a local
microwave service taking business off them. A neighbouring village with
bad aluminium problems has been FTTC'd to chop the legs off a local
entrepreneur's initiative to provide microwave high speed broadband.

A long term solution would be to start a Gigaclear project.


Given the OPs mates apparent lack of technical nous that is a complete
non-starter. He might well be better off with satellite for business use
in the middle of nowhere if there are no other alternatives.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #10  
Old March 11th 15, 08:44 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Roderick Stewart
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 562
Default Problematic rural broadband connection

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 08:12:46 +0000, Martin Brown
wrote:

The master socket should be as close to where the cable enters the
building as possible. The router should be connected to the master
socket using a filtered faceplate.


Although that isn't a bad idea the difference that a few tens of metres
of extra internal wiring makes compared to the *long* run back to the
exchange makes little or no difference unless you route it parallel to
your Ham radio transmission cable or mains trunking.


This point seems to come up every week or so now, and has already been
covered many times. It's not just the few extra metres of cable length
that need to be considered, but the fact that some of it may be of
unknown provenance, particularly if it is an old house. DIY extension
wiring may include branches that can act as RF stubs, bad joints that
can act as rectifiers, and as you've pointed out, sections that can
pick up indiced currents from other wiring.

I can't see the difference on the stats with or without 30m of high
grade twisted pair between me and the master socket.


Neither can I, provided that's all it consists of, but can you always
be sure? If you are a radio ham, you probably know more about RF
wiring that most people, but in general the exact details of the
internal phone wiring won't be known and there will be no point asking
the householder, so it's best to play safe and keep the wiring simple.

Rod.
 




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Suffolk Rural Broadband Davey uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) 17 January 26th 14 10:48 PM
Rural Broadband Martin Brown uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) 83 November 21st 12 08:17 PM
Rural broadband problem Graham J uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) 4 April 8th 08 12:27 PM
Plusnet DNS servers - always problematic Madge O'Reene uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) 6 October 20th 05 08:07 AM
RFD: uk.telecom.broadband.rural Andrew Hodgson uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) 13 January 13th 04 09:26 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 2.4.0
Copyright 2004-2019 BroadbanterBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.