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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises!



 
 
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  #21  
Old June 12th 17, 07:47 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Chris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 459
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises!

Woody wrote:

"Theo" wrote in message
...
thesimpsons wrote:
That all the fibre cabinets in my area (01934) now state, FTTP now
available on demand, with 330 down and 30 up.


Why oh why are they persisting with this 11:1 down/up ratio?
Haven't they realised it isn't copper and there's plenty of
bandwidth to go
round in either direction?

Or does Openreach FTTP still go through some pseudo-copper
infrastructure at
some point (like DOCSIS does)?



I think it is more to do with statistical usage. Most users will send
little data - a surfing request for instance - but will download a lot
like films and music etc.


That's a circular argument. People are never going to upload much if it's
throttled so severely.

In this day and age there's no reason to make up/down bandwidth much more
similar 1:2 or 1:3





  #22  
Old June 12th 17, 08:42 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Andy Furniss
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises!

Andy Burns wrote:
Andy Furniss wrote:

AIUI (may be wrong/outdated) "normal" fttp uses gpon which is 2.4
gig down and 1.2 up. This is split passively - I don't know how
much in practice, but any more than 7 and 330mbit is going to be
contended.


If they provide FTTP because they can't provide FTTC, then yes I
assume it's optically split and probably using multi "colour" lasers
for different subscribers sharing a fibre ...


Not so sure about the multi wave bit, I guess that's down to what kit is
on the ends - so for now at least it seems not.

Searching out an old forum thread, it seems that it is gpon (ITU G.984)
and the staff of thinkbroadband claimed 32 way splits, which makes the
lower upload make more sense, plus the "Up to" on every openreach list
for download speeds. Of course things move on and new faster products I
guess will be split differently.

But do they do all that for FTTPoD? I'd have though the CPE might
just be an optical to copper ethernet bridge with the far end of the
fibre in a switch port in the FTTC cabinet?


Going by the thread I linked to earlier - FTTPoD reverts to "normal"
FTTP after 3 years, so I guess it's the same tech wise, the ONT shown in
the thread (or related thread) is the same as for FTTP.
  #23  
Old June 12th 17, 09:11 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Andy Furniss
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises!

Andy Furniss wrote:

Not so sure about the multi wave bit, I guess that's down to what kit is
on the ends - so for now at least it seems not.


Well this is timely ...

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/...e-architecture
  #24  
Old June 12th 17, 11:15 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Woody
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 587
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises!


"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
Woody wrote:

Theo wrote:


Why oh why are they persisting with this 11:1 down/up ratio?


I think it is more to do with statistical usage. Most users will
send
little data - a surfing request for instance - but will download a
lot
like films and music etc.


But it just means the upstreams of all their links all the way from
the fibre cab, to the exchange, to the ISP will be underutilised,
some people want to upload stuff, do backups, video conferencing
etc.




Yes but in reality how many people use 'domestic' connections that
want/need to upload very large files very quickly? Business users yes,
and they are prepared to pay for it if they need it, but not
domestically.


--
Woody

harrogate3 at ntlworld dot com


  #25  
Old June 13th 17, 08:26 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Tweed[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises!

Woody wrote:

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
Woody wrote:

Theo wrote:


Why oh why are they persisting with this 11:1 down/up ratio?

I think it is more to do with statistical usage. Most users will
send
little data - a surfing request for instance - but will download a
lot
like films and music etc.


But it just means the upstreams of all their links all the way from
the fibre cab, to the exchange, to the ISP will be underutilised,
some people want to upload stuff, do backups, video conferencing
etc.




Yes but in reality how many people use 'domestic' connections that
want/need to upload very large files very quickly? Business users yes,
and they are prepared to pay for it if they need it, but not
domestically.



An increasing number of us. With storage moving to the cloud and people
taking increasing amounts of high resolution video and high resolution
photographs, upload is key. I take photos on my iPhone, and when I get back
to my wifi the phone uploads all the pictures to iCloud. At the moment it's
ok on the 10Mbit/sec that my Virgin cable connection allows. But I hardly
take any video. If I were a very keen photographer I would already find
this too slow. If you have several family members who have been out in a
trip together, the connection gets really hammered as we all walk back
through the door. Demands are only going to go upwards over the next
decade.

  #26  
Old June 13th 17, 08:50 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Chris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 459
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises!

Tweed wrote:
Woody wrote:

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
Woody wrote:

Theo wrote:

Why oh why are they persisting with this 11:1 down/up ratio?

I think it is more to do with statistical usage. Most users will
send
little data - a surfing request for instance - but will download a
lot
like films and music etc.

But it just means the upstreams of all their links all the way from
the fibre cab, to the exchange, to the ISP will be underutilised,
some people want to upload stuff, do backups, video conferencing
etc.




Yes but in reality how many people use 'domestic' connections that
want/need to upload very large files very quickly? Business users yes,
and they are prepared to pay for it if they need it, but not
domestically.



An increasing number of us. With storage moving to the cloud and people
taking increasing amounts of high resolution video and high resolution
photographs, upload is key. I take photos on my iPhone, and when I get back
to my wifi the phone uploads all the pictures to iCloud. At the moment it's
ok on the 10Mbit/sec that my Virgin cable connection allows. But I hardly
take any video. If I were a very keen photographer I would already find
this too slow. If you have several family members who have been out in a
trip together, the connection gets really hammered as we all walk back
through the door. Demands are only going to go upwards over the next
decade.


This in so many ways. Not unusual for a house to have four devices using
the internet at the same time. Uploading content is more and more common,
but is suffering from artificial limits.

Some fibre services which only provide 2mbps up are just taking the ****.

  #27  
Old June 13th 17, 09:10 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 573
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises!

Tweed wrote:
Woody wrote:

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
Woody wrote:

Theo wrote:

Why oh why are they persisting with this 11:1 down/up ratio?

I think it is more to do with statistical usage. Most users will
send
little data - a surfing request for instance - but will download a
lot
like films and music etc.

But it just means the upstreams of all their links all the way from
the fibre cab, to the exchange, to the ISP will be underutilised,
some people want to upload stuff, do backups, video conferencing
etc.




Yes but in reality how many people use 'domestic' connections that
want/need to upload very large files very quickly? Business users yes,
and they are prepared to pay for it if they need it, but not
domestically.



An increasing number of us. With storage moving to the cloud and people
taking increasing amounts of high resolution video and high resolution
photographs, upload is key. I take photos on my iPhone, and when I get back
to my wifi the phone uploads all the pictures to iCloud. At the moment it's
ok on the 10Mbit/sec that my Virgin cable connection allows. But I hardly
take any video. If I were a very keen photographer I would already find
this too slow. If you have several family members who have been out in a
trip together, the connection gets really hammered as we all walk back
through the door. Demands are only going to go upwards over the next
decade.


Such activity will often saturate the upload path, seriously slowing the
handshakes for downloaded packets. Users then don't understand why
their internet connection doesn't appear to be working!

Where this is a problem I supply a Vigor router, set up static or bound
IP addresses for the iThing clients, and configure the router to limit
traffic for those devices to a suitably small proportion of that
available. So the users see a functional internet connection all the
time and they don't notice that the synchronisation of photos is taking
a bit longer.

But in the long term better upload speeds are generally needed, I agree.

--
Graham J


  #28  
Old June 13th 17, 09:38 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises!

On 11/06/2017 08:28, Graham J wrote:
thesimpsons wrote:
I've just noticed using.
http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/adslchecker.welcome
That all the fibre cabinets in my area (01934) now state, FTTP now
available on demand, with 330 down and 30 up.

I've not noticed this before, is this the same in other areas?


Only in some towns and cities.

Having done a little research an average figure of 500 is mentioned for
connection, depending on distance from the cabinet.
Will there be many takers?


Not many - a few small businesses with might see an advantage.

Larger businesses who already have fibre via a leased line (which
probably incurred a 50,000 setup charge) might save some money or could
benefit from the added connection resilience.

But the people who really need the service are those like me in a rural
area where we get 2MBits/sec or less and have no chance of getting FTTC
because our lines go direct to the exchange without passing through a
nearby cabinet. So we don't stand any chance of ever getting a faster
connection unless it becomes a legal obligation for Openreach to provide
it.


The bell wire hack is worth a try if you have old telephone internal
wiring and have not already done it. Official version is a filtered
master socket insert so that MW radio interference doesn't get in.

It is worth asking around locally to see if there are any workable 3G
mobile signals or line of site local microwave based rural broadband
initiatives linked to school networks. Starting one up with minor
success is a great way to trigger BT into upgrading local cabinets. eg

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php...kshire-uk.html

and

https://recombu.com/digital/article/...re_M10894.html

Others are available.

The 3/4G approach requires a MiFi that accepts external directional yagi
aerials and a fair bit of fiddling to get a decent signal to it. Again
you need good line of sign on the host mast and 35km away.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #29  
Old June 13th 17, 01:10 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 249
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises!

On Monday, 12 June 2017 16:06:18 UTC+1, Graham. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 15:25:07 +0100, "Woody"
wrote:


"Theo" wrote in message
...
thesimpsons wrote:
That all the fibre cabinets in my area (01934) now state, FTTP now
available on demand, with 330 down and 30 up.

Why oh why are they persisting with this 11:1 down/up ratio?
Haven't they realised it isn't copper and there's plenty of
bandwidth to go
round in either direction?

Or does Openreach FTTP still go through some pseudo-copper
infrastructure at
some point (like DOCSIS does)?



I think it is more to do with statistical usage. Most users will send
little data - a surfing request for instance - but will download a lot
like films and music etc.

I don't know but I suspect even with FTTP there is still contention.


Wasn't it ever thus?
1200/75 baud Prestel et al


Indeed - the purpose is that you can have more bandwidth on the downlink if you sacrifice some on the uplink. Usually the user want to downlink lots and only wants to uplink [slow] typing, although on good old teletypes, I could types fast enough to hit the interlock (110bps, but start and stop bits meant 10cps)


--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%


  #30  
Old June 13th 17, 01:13 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 249
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises!

On Monday, 12 June 2017 18:39:40 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
Andy Furniss wrote:

AIUI (may be wrong/outdated) "normal" fttp uses gpon which is 2.4 gig
down and 1.2 up. This is split passively - I don't know how much in
practice, but any more than 7 and 330mbit is going to be contended.


If they provide FTTP because they can't provide FTTC, then yes I assume
it's optically split and probably using multi "colour" lasers for
different subscribers sharing a fibre ...


It will be statistical. Colour splitting is for trans oceanic links in the Tbps range etc.


But do they do all that for FTTPoD? I'd have though the CPE might just
be an optical to copper ethernet bridge with the far end of the fibre in
a switch port in the FTTC cabinet?


 




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