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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises!



 
 
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  #51  
Old June 15th 17, 09:09 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband,uk.misc,uk.politics.misc
7[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 259
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises - is a fake claim!

Roderick Stewart wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 15:14:46 +0100, Graham J
wrote:

Given that that an internet connection is required in order to deal with
goverment, it should be made available at sufficient performance and
affordable prices, much as the letter post achieves delivery within a
week (sometimes better) for the price of a stamp.


If "should be" = "would be desirable if it were", then I'd agree with
you, but how could this be achieved in practice? The internet hasn't
got the same history as the GPO, which used to be responsible for all
our communications and was surrounded by a labyrinthine system of
rules and regulations governing what it did. Once upon a time you
could post a letter to St Kilda because the GPO was obliged to provide
its services everywhere at a universal price, and the telephone system
effectively ran from a 48 Volt UPS which also powered the equipment in
the home, so was unaffected by power cuts. The modern internet
equivalent I suppose would be megabandwidth everywhere in the UK and a
guaranteed maximum fix time if it ever went wrong, which would be
lovely but how would it be paid for?

I think we can be sure that the impetus for any such system would
never come from a bunch of competing commercial concerns, but would
require an Act of Parliament to oblige them to do it.


The poolitician is unaware Internet is responsible for 180 billion
pounds worth of annual trade and nothing out there matches it.
Every city that gets fibre pushes up GDP contribution by 2 billion.
The total cost of symmetric (equal upload and download speed)
fibre to all of UK homes is about 6.5 billion
because of advances in technology and lowering of fibre technology costs.
This is easily recovered by year 2.


I wonder if the
number of people who would appreciate the increased availability and
reliability would exceed the number who would not appreciate the
inevitable increase in prices?

Rod.


  #52  
Old June 15th 17, 09:30 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Vir Campestris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 159
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises!

On 13/06/2017 08:38, Martin Brown wrote:
line of site local microwave based rural broadband initiatives


It's funny, but just after we started investigating that BT finally got
their fingers out and stopped slipping year-on-year...

Andy
  #53  
Old June 15th 17, 09:35 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Vir Campestris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 159
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises!

On 14/06/2017 17:36, Roderick Stewart wrote:
Most
domestic users probably have ADSL, VDSL or DOCSIS cable, all of which
are asymmetric to some extent


Some of us have GPON. Still asymmetric.

Andy
  #54  
Old June 15th 17, 10:12 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 545
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises!

Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 15:14:46 +0100, Graham J
wrote:

Given that that an internet connection is required in order to deal with
goverment, it should be made available at sufficient performance and
affordable prices, much as the letter post achieves delivery within a
week (sometimes better) for the price of a stamp.


If "should be" = "would be desirable if it were", then I'd agree with
you, but how could this be achieved in practice? The internet hasn't
got the same history as the GPO, which used to be responsible for all
our communications and was surrounded by a labyrinthine system of
rules and regulations governing what it did. Once upon a time you
could post a letter to St Kilda because the GPO was obliged to provide
its services everywhere at a universal price, and the telephone system
effectively ran from a 48 Volt UPS which also powered the equipment in
the home, so was unaffected by power cuts. The modern internet
equivalent I suppose would be megabandwidth everywhere in the UK and a
guaranteed maximum fix time if it ever went wrong, which would be
lovely but how would it be paid for?

I think we can be sure that the impetus for any such system would
never come from a bunch of competing commercial concerns, but would
require an Act of Parliament to oblige them to do it. I wonder if the
number of people who would appreciate the increased availability and
reliability would exceed the number who would not appreciate the
inevitable increase in prices?


Technology has moved on.

A broadband universal service offering 10Mbits/sec as described in:

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/asse...nal-report.pdf

.... might increase costs to average consumers by between 11 and 20 per
year if amortised over 7 years. So it could easily be paid for by a
small increase in charges for all users.

The paper has a lot of useful information and calculations, but in my
view most of it is of only marginal relevance because the average cost
of a 10Mbit/s sec universal service would only add a few percent to
bills if spread across all users.

So there's no commercial reason not to instigate a universal service
obligation immediately.

I suspect there is a wide spread of costs for postal deliveries, and
these are likely to vary more linearly with distance, so the difference
in costs between destination addresses is much greater. Thus a delivery
to an address at the other end of the country may cost many hundreds of
times as much as the cost to an address in the same town. But I don't
think anybody objects to the principle of a USO for letter post.

By contrast, the costs of a broadband USO installation are substantially
similar for over 70% of the population (between 250 and 500) and it is
only for the most difficult 5% of locations that costs increase by more
than a factor of 10 (to over 5,000).

--
Graham J



  #55  
Old June 16th 17, 09:16 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 216
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises!

On Thursday, 15 June 2017 20:21:25 UTC+1, Optimist wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 18:58:46 +0100, Roderick Stewart wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 15:14:46 +0100, Graham J
wrote:

Given that that an internet connection is required in order to deal with
goverment, it should be made available at sufficient performance and
affordable prices, much as the letter post achieves delivery within a
week (sometimes better) for the price of a stamp.


If "should be" = "would be desirable if it were", then I'd agree with
you, but how could this be achieved in practice? The internet hasn't
got the same history as the GPO, which used to be responsible for all
our communications and was surrounded by a labyrinthine system of
rules and regulations governing what it did. Once upon a time you
could post a letter to St Kilda because the GPO was obliged to provide
its services everywhere at a universal price, and the telephone system
effectively ran from a 48 Volt UPS which also powered the equipment in
the home, so was unaffected by power cuts. The modern internet
equivalent I suppose would be megabandwidth everywhere in the UK and a
guaranteed maximum fix time if it ever went wrong, which would be
lovely but how would it be paid for?

I think we can be sure that the impetus for any such system would
never come from a bunch of competing commercial concerns, but would
require an Act of Parliament to oblige them to do it. I wonder if the
number of people who would appreciate the increased availability and
reliability would exceed the number who would not appreciate the
inevitable increase in prices?


Indeed. And don't forget under the GPO monopoly, it could take years to get a line and the choice
of equipment was limited. It was illegal to attach unapproved equipment to the phone line (I
remember during the 80s a fast-selling modem being marketed as NOT POST OFFICE APPROVED).


I was lucky. In 1975 I rented a flat, and the line was still on, so I simply transferred it. Still got the number (now in a different flat). I also was staying with someone in London during the week, so I ordered a line there. As it was literally a stone's throw from the exchange I did not expect a problem. GPO sent a letter advising the number but nothing happened, but after a week the chap whose flat it was rang up the engineers to complain about the line being off "again" and they fixed it!
  #56  
Old June 16th 17, 09:53 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Roderick Stewart
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 462
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises - is a fake claim!

On 15 Jun 2017 20:09:29 GMT, 7 wrote:

I think we can be sure that the impetus for any such system would
never come from a bunch of competing commercial concerns, but would
require an Act of Parliament to oblige them to do it.


The poolitician is unaware Internet is responsible for 180 billion
pounds worth of annual trade and nothing out there matches it.
Every city that gets fibre pushes up GDP contribution by 2 billion.
The total cost of symmetric (equal upload and download speed)
fibre to all of UK homes is about 6.5 billion
because of advances in technology and lowering of fibre technology costs.
This is easily recovered by year 2.


Then what we really need is more politicians with an understanding of
technology. Somehow I don't see that happening overnight either.

Rod.
  #57  
Old June 16th 17, 10:22 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 545
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises - is a fake claim!

Roderick Stewart wrote:
On 15 Jun 2017 20:09:29 GMT, 7 wrote:

I think we can be sure that the impetus for any such system would
never come from a bunch of competing commercial concerns, but would
require an Act of Parliament to oblige them to do it.


The poolitician is unaware Internet is responsible for 180 billion
pounds worth of annual trade and nothing out there matches it.
Every city that gets fibre pushes up GDP contribution by 2 billion.
The total cost of symmetric (equal upload and download speed)
fibre to all of UK homes is about 6.5 billion
because of advances in technology and lowering of fibre technology costs.
This is easily recovered by year 2.


Then what we really need is more politicians with an understanding of
technology. Somehow I don't see that happening overnight either.




Move to Germany ...

--
Graham J

  #58  
Old June 16th 17, 11:40 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
7[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 259
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises - is a fake claim!

Graham J wrote:


I think we can be sure that the impetus for any such system would
never come from a bunch of competing commercial concerns, but would
require an Act of Parliament to oblige them to do it.

The poolitician is unaware Internet is responsible for 180 billion
pounds worth of annual trade and nothing out there matches it.
Every city that gets fibre pushes up GDP contribution by 2 billion.
The total cost of symmetric (equal upload and download speed)
fibre to all of UK homes is about 6.5 billion
because of advances in technology and lowering of fibre technology
costs. This is easily recovered by year 2.


Then what we really need is more politicians with an understanding of
technology. Somehow I don't see that happening overnight either.




Move to Germany ...


Why?

Why not strap the failing poolitician to a sounding rocket
and launch in the general direction of Uranus?

They just been elected to

1. Stand up
2. Troll
3. Sit down fastly.

Most of these pooliticians have run big companies or have worked
in them and they use internet, intranet, wiki, chat,
whatsapp, linkedin, facebook, twitter etc, skype, irc,
etc to communicate with workers in a most productive
and efficient way. You can't imagine them authorizing
the stand up, troll, sit down fastly methodology
for getting any productive work done. So why
the fsck do they go along with it?


  #59  
Old June 18th 17, 09:53 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Vir Campestris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 159
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises!

On 15/06/2017 22:12, Graham J wrote:
So there's no commercial reason not to instigate a universal service
obligation immediately.


Depends what they mean by universal. It'll be available at "reasonable
request" which probably means "unless it's too hard".

Andy
  #60  
Old June 24th 17, 05:30 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
stephen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 338
Default BT Fibre Availability - To the Premises!

On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 04:13:06 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"
wrote:

On Monday, 12 June 2017 18:39:40 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
Andy Furniss wrote:

AIUI (may be wrong/outdated) "normal" fttp uses gpon which is 2.4 gig
down and 1.2 up. This is split passively - I don't know how much in
practice, but any more than 7 and 330mbit is going to be contended.


If they provide FTTP because they can't provide FTTC, then yes I assume
it's optically split and probably using multi "colour" lasers for
different subscribers sharing a fibre ...


background article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_optical_network

note the uplink is usually time sliced in some manner - so uplink
capacity is limited which pushes these services towards a lower speed
uplink to get high fanout (which in turn reduces the equipment needed
at the exchange).

a high level Openreach info doc
https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/hom...2020111108.pdf
a bit more with some onward links
https://www.homeandwork.openreach.co...ibre/fttp.aspx


It will be statistical. Colour splitting is for trans oceanic links in the Tbps range etc.

Optical stuff in general has got cheaper over the years - Mark is
talking about DWDM where close spacing of the channels means you need
carefully controlled "colours" and that means temperature stabilised
lasers.

CWDM avoid that by using wider spacing for the colours......

anyhow - most cost optimised systems have differing network "costs" to
uplink and downlink traffic within the network.
In particular downlink web and other traffic might be cached without
goin all the way to an international web site
-eg in a web cache or via some media on demand for iplayer, Netflix,
AV updates etc
so reducing the number of replicas that cross the network and
improving the network use.

With GPON you have other constraints
- the uplink is time sliced, so the amount of bandwidth allocated per
location, overall channel speed and the fan out used have to be traded
off (just like a DOCSIS style cable system)

Openreach publish some info on how their implementation of this stuff
works

The BT SINET site gives a lot of info for suppliers / customers (ie
the ISPs) - the docs are not restricted
www.sinet.bt.com

A google search will find lots of other docs

But do they do all that for FTTPoD? I'd have though the CPE might just
be an optical to copper ethernet bridge with the far end of the fibre in
a switch port in the FTTC cabinet?


Lower speed GPON has used TDM in the passive glass mixers.

Once you get to the exchange there is a layer 2 switch to tinker with
all the per user / per ISP traffic flows so that each customer gets
the traffic from their chosen ISP.

ISP handovers are then 1G or 10G "cablelinks" - exactly how those map
to the customers for that ISP dictates the contention ratios.
Stephen Hope
Replace xyz with ntl to reply
 




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