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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

Persuading BT OPenreach to investigate broadband problem



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 24th 17, 11:46 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 575
Default Persuading BT Openreach to investigate broadband problem

NY wrote:
"Graham J" wrote in message
news
My experience is the demarcation is the end of the dropwire unless the
junction box and the cable to the master socket are all clearly
provided by Openreach.

What you describe is non-standard. Have you opened junction box and
seen what is inside? I've known Openreach equip these boxes with
filters to prevent audio noise, and they block ADSL quite effectively!
The old ones contain a lightning arrester which can upset the ADSL
signals.


I didn't open the junction box. I assumed (which you should never do)
that it simply joined the fairly stiff drop cable to more flexible cable
which was routed along the window sill, and then round the edge of it to
pass underneath it, along the skirting board and into the master socket.

Hopefully if BT OR do attend they will investigate this as well as
everything else and get to the bottom of why the data throughput is
sometimes so bad even though the sync speed is fairly constant at 1.2 /
0.5 which is slow by modern standards (*) but usable providing it's
reliable and you always get roughly that speed.

During a period when I was getting ping times of about 120 msec (as
opposed to 4000 msec!) I ran speedtest.net and got about 0.9 / 0.3
Mbps, so not much slower than the sync speed that the router reported.


You can expect about 88% of the sync speed as the maximum data rate.
See: http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/IPprofile.htm or many other references.

--
Graham J




  #12  
Old August 24th 17, 11:52 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 575
Default Persuading BT Openreach to investigate broadband problem

NY wrote:
"Woody" wrote in message
news
Beware. If the drop cable does not go to the BT line box they could have
grounds for saying you have done this extra bit of wiring and as a
consequence charge you for a callout.


What is the approved BT method of getting drop cable to the master socket
when the route that it must take within the house involves tight curves
that
are too severe for drop cable to manage? I've seen these little junction
boxes between drop and white cable quite often in phone installations and
I've not thought anything of it other than that it provides a transition
between thick, stiff cable and thinner, flexible cable.

How does one convince BT OR that what they see it what they, BT OR,
installed a few years earlier?

How diligent are BT OR at attending to investigate poor broadband on long
lines? Are they known for sometimes deciding not to attend a callout that
has been made at the ISP's request if they know that the line is long and
the cables in the area are poor quality or involve lots of joints on pole
boxes or underground boxes. The distance from the house to the exchange is
about 6 km as the crow flies but I don't know what route the
overhead/underground cables may follow.



Openreach diligence is totally dependent on the ISP. This is why you
must first change to a competent ISP.

The attending Openreach engineer will have a map showing the route of
the line and will be prepared to re-make every join on that line if
necessary. Alternatively he (never known a she) will find an unused
pair that may be of better quality (i.e. copper all the way rather than
sections of aluminium).

I have known reliable ADSL on a line of 8km length, at about 512k sync
speed. A friend has a 12km line and only after many engineer visits
have they told him that "ADSL is not available at his address" so not
even A&A can ask for it.

--
Graham J

  #13  
Old August 25th 17, 01:44 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
AnthonyL
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Posts: 99
Default Persuading BT OPenreach to investigate broadband problem

On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:13:20 +0100, Graham J
wrote:

NY wrote:

[snip very common tale of woe]

Your only solution is to change ISP, to either Zen Internet or Andrews &
Arnold.


Is it A&A who have a "money back if we can't get it fixed" option?

I'll leave it to the OP to check.

Zen were certainly most helpful when I had intermittent issues though
the solution was that the "master socket" wasn't the master socket!
(on old barn/office conversion).

--
AnthonyL
  #14  
Old August 25th 17, 02:05 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Bob Eager[_3_]
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Posts: 104
Default Persuading BT OPenreach to investigate broadband problem

On Fri, 25 Aug 2017 11:44:06 +0000, AnthonyL wrote:

On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:13:20 +0100, Graham J wrote:

NY wrote:

[snip very common tale of woe]

Your only solution is to change ISP, to either Zen Internet or Andrews &
Arnold.


Is it A&A who have a "money back if we can't get it fixed" option?

I'll leave it to the OP to check.


No need. A link was given upthread.
  #15  
Old August 27th 17, 06:45 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Persuading BT OPenreach to investigate broadband problem

On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:13:20 +0100, Graham J
wrote:



Also see:

https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-trial.html

... which says:

"If you are migrating your service to us, even though you know you have
a problem with your broadband line, we'll take on the fault. We'll
tackle the problem and get it fixed within one month. If we don't then
you can migrate away and owe us nothing for your migration to us and
your service charges for that month."

Hmmmm.. and when I tried this the A&A ordering system came back with
"We cannot provide broadband service on this line"

Fortunately I was only really after their monitoring system - being
fed up with always having to wait several days for OR attendance once
a line probelm became noticable to me - and my current ISP (IDNET) are
pretty good at chasing OR.
One does have to have a degree of confidence that the problem is not
internal as you invariably have to agree that you will pay the OR
charge if the problem IS found to be internal wiring.


Please reply to group - email address is not monitored
Ian
  #16  
Old August 27th 17, 06:45 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Persuading BT Openreach to investigate broadband problem

On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 19:25:18 +0100, Dick wrote:

On 24-Aug-17 7:20 PM, NY wrote:

Am I right that the demarcation point is still deemed to be the master
socket? The only slightly non-standard thing is that the drop cable
doesn't go right to the master socket but ends at a rectangular BT
junction box with about a metre of white cable from that box to the BT
master socket.


That's why there is a test socket behind the removable faceplate of the
master socket. Reomving the faceplate disconnects all internal wiring
and provides a demarcation point.



My installation had the drop wire coming to a connection box on an
exterior wall, then through loft space to an old BT lozenge connection
box and onward to "NTE5" Master socket in the bedroom. Recent OR visit
confirmed a bad connection in the exterior box and high resistance in
cable in the loft. OR engineer claimed he wasn't allowed into the loft
(as it is unboarded) so replaced the exterior box and ran new wire
externally to a newly positioned NTE5C Mk4 Master socket in another
bedroom. This would suggest the demarcation point WAS the exterior
box.

Move forward 2 weeks to last Wednesday when the nice shiny new NTE5C
went pop during a thunderstorm. Everything still worked if plugged
into the test socket (accessible after removing the faceplate).
Broadband still worked when plugged into the Master Socket but phone
did not. My phone provder/ISP felt that an online purchase of a
replacement faceplate was the more appropriate option as he felt sure
that OR would charge the standard 130+ if they came out and found the
test socket working correctly. I followed this advice. This suggests
the demarcation point is now the test socket behind the master socket
faceplate......

As stated by Graham J.... 'tis a moot point.....
Please reply to group - email address is not monitored
Ian
  #17  
Old August 27th 17, 06:45 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Persuading BT Openreach to investigate broadband problem

On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 22:52:44 +0100, Graham J
wrote:



Openreach diligence is totally dependent on the ISP. This is why you
must first change to a competent ISP.


Agreed 100%

The attending Openreach engineer will have a map showing the route of
the line and will be prepared to re-make every join on that line if
necessary. Alternatively he (never known a she) will find an unused
pair that may be of better quality (i.e. copper all the way rather than
sections of aluminium).


The most diligent one we ever had visit was a she.
I've had 2 OR engineer visits in the last 3 weeks. Both had the map
but they didn't agree on which line we were actually on! One insisted
we came along the 'Exchange only' line to the east of the B1363, the
other that we were connected to a cabinet on the West of B1363. This
is highly relevant with regard to Superfast BB provision. I'm
currently awaiting a response from OR management!

I have known reliable ADSL on a line of 8km length, at about 512k sync
speed. A friend has a 12km line and only after many engineer visits
have they told him that "ADSL is not available at his address" so not
even A&A can ask for it.


For the record. ADSL here on about 6km line length usually syncs at
around 3 to 3.5meg.
Please reply to group - email address is not monitored
Ian
  #18  
Old August 27th 17, 07:21 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Tim+[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 115
Default Persuading BT Openreach to investigate broadband problem

wrote:


Move forward 2 weeks to last Wednesday when the nice shiny new NTE5C
went pop during a thunderstorm. Everything still worked if plugged
into the test socket (accessible after removing the faceplate).
Broadband still worked when plugged into the Master Socket but phone
did not. My phone provder/ISP felt that an online purchase of a
replacement faceplate was the more appropriate option as he felt sure
that OR would charge the standard 130+ if they came out and found the
test socket working correctly. I followed this advice. This suggests
the demarcation point is now the test socket behind the master socket
faceplate......


Um, it always has been (at least where a split face master socket is
fitted). Anything "beyond" the test socket is connected to your (possibly
faulty) wiring, hence the much repeated advice to use the test socket
behind the faceplate.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls
  #19  
Old August 27th 17, 08:11 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 575
Default Persuading BT OPenreach to investigate broadband problem

wrote:
On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:13:20 +0100, Graham J
wrote:



Also see:

https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-trial.html

... which says:

"If you are migrating your service to us, even though you know you have
a problem with your broadband line, we'll take on the fault. We'll
tackle the problem and get it fixed within one month. If we don't then
you can migrate away and owe us nothing for your migration to us and
your service charges for that month."


[snip]

That may simply be because there is already a broadband service from
another supplier on the line. Maybe you should try the "migrate" option
rather than the "new service" option?

If that fails ring them and ask why.

--
Graham J



  #20  
Old August 27th 17, 08:58 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
NY
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 295
Default Persuading BT Openreach to investigate broadband problem

wrote in message
...
My installation had the drop wire coming to a connection box on an
exterior wall, then through loft space to an old BT lozenge connection
box and onward to "NTE5" Master socket in the bedroom.


Until couple of years ago, our wiring had a drop cable going to a GPO
lozenge box from which two round white cables went, one to a socket
downstairs and one to a socket upstairs. The sockets were marked British
Telecom, with the original dots-and-dashes logo immediately
post-privatisation. That dates the sockets to the early 80s, though the
wiring may have been done before that, feeding hard-wired GPO telephones
originally.

We had good ADSL to the upstairs socket from which I fed a fairly crappy
ribbon cable extension lead to the bedroom where the router lives. It
gradually increased over the years to about 7.5 Mbps.

Then very suddenly ADSL became atrocious: the router would lose sync for
hours at a time and when it did synchronise it was at a wide variety of
rates. Things were always worse after heavy rain, which suggests water in a
joint somewhere.

BT OR (requested by my ISP, Plusnet) attended twice. The first time they
replaced the upstairs socket by a modern non-faceplate socket, correcting a
wiring fault at the same time. The second time they replaced the BT lozenge
with a faceplate master socket and connected the existing two cable runs to
the faceplate in such a way that they were isolated from each other and
didn't constitute "star wiring" which apparently is the cause of many ADSL
problems.

Even at the master test socket, with the house wiring disconnected, ADSL was
still poor compared with what it had been until a few months before. We were
going to get BT out again, but we decided to treat ourselves to "fibre". The
reduced cable length to our cabinet and maybe the switch to VDSL which may
or may be more resilient to bad joints seem to have eliminated the fault.

At the master socket, with the house wiring unplugged, we got about 30 Mbps.
With it connected and the router still in the master socket, it dropped to
about 25. But it was a hassle having to use Homeplug to get Ethernet from
beside the front door up to my study, so I tried the router in its original
location, using all the dubious ribbon cable. That reduced the sync speed to
about 20 which I decided was tolerable (especially given the bigger benefit
of increased upload speed from 0.5 to 7 Mbps) given that the router was
where I really needed it to be so it was a) next to the computers that
needed 100% reliable connection (I don't trust wifi to work 24x7 without
needing occasional manual intervention and reboots of router or PCs), and b)
higher up, giving wider wifi coverage for laptops and mobile phones.

The moral of this is that sometimes BT OR don't fully investigate faults
that may be outside the house, instead concentrating on wiring "faults"
(usually obsolete wiring standards), and that sometimes it is better to
suffer a slight reduction from the very best that you can get if it gives
you a router where you really need it.

It also highlighted that BT OR engineers are not always up-to-date with
policies. Until literally a week before I first called BT OR (via my ISP),
BT OR would relocate a master socket to where you needed it (within x metres
of the original location, to avoid people taking the ****) and both BT OR
engineers urged me to request my ISP to commission BT OR to do this, which
was my right to do. But they were out of date in their recommendation. I was
just too late, so I'd have had to pay them 150 for them to install a data
socket (filtered) where I wanted it, so I chose to use the amateur method of
achieving this, given that the penalty was not a *dramatic* reduction in
speed.

 




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