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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

No copper infrastructure in UK so why is BT (British Telecum) Openroach installing 10mbit copper?



 
 
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  #22  
Old December 30th 17, 03:45 PM posted to uk.politics.misc,uk.misc,uk.finance,uk.telecom.broadband
Ian Jackson[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default No copper infrastructure in UK so why is BT (British Telecum) Openroach in

In message , Graham J
writes
Woody wrote:

[snip]


What is more no digging - all installed using by boring from the
street into the cellar using a small boring device on the end of a
control shaft. Whole street of about 40 houses done in less than a
week.


Our village is suffering major roadworks while Anglian Water installs a
new public sewer. This involves cutting a trench about 0.7 metre wide
by between 2.5m and 5m deep along the length of the road through the
village. It seems to me that this work is an obvious candidate for a
boring device - yet the contractors tell me that boring is much more
expensive - it beats me why! Can anybody explain?

While digging this trench they could have installed an empty duct for
other services (such as fibre) at almost nil cost - yet there doesn't
seem to be any obligation on them to do so. It follows that next year
or whenever we get fibre Openreach will probably dig up the road again.

Is there a planning system in this country, or what?

On a somewhat different grumble, it's 3pm Saturday, and I keep hearing
on the LBC traffic reports that one lane of the M25 is closed between
J16 and J15 for barrier repairs (caused by an accident on Tuesday -
Boxing Day). There are tailbacks to J17. How long does it take to repair
barriers these days?
--
Ian
  #23  
Old December 30th 17, 05:53 PM posted to uk.politics.misc,uk.misc,uk.finance,uk.telecom.broadband
stephen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 359
Default No copper infrastructure in UK so why is BT (British Telecum) Openroach in

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 08:26:54 -0000, "Woody"
wrote:


"Paul Cummins" wrote in message
. uk...
In article ,
(7)
wrote:

There is no copper infrastructure in UK for internet.
The entire infrastructure is fibre.


Are you sure? NO copper AT ALL? That's unbelievable, as there is
copper
into ever single BT Served address, including those served by
fibre...



I think what he may be saying is that the backbone and switch
distribution of the Internet in the UK is fibre - which may be true if
you omit the various microwave links over which it also flows and the
local loop.


He has a point about the exchange backhaul level plumbing, which is
almost all glass these days. Some of that glass is 25 to 30 or more
years old & is having to be replaced as either not up to modern
standards, or degrading....

There are a few terrestrial backbone microwave links - out to islands
and across the mountains - although even there they have been
relegated to relatively low speed backups to primary fibre links.

Where you do still find microwave is to awkward locations - a lot of
mobile masts still are expensive / impractical to hook onto fibre, and
a point to point microwave can support fractional GigE at a few Km
which is enough for lower density 4G.

--
Stephen
  #24  
Old December 30th 17, 06:14 PM posted to uk.politics.misc,uk.misc,uk.finance,uk.telecom.broadband
Woody
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 634
Default No copper infrastructure in UK so why is BT (British Telecum) Openroach in


"Graham J" wrote in message
news
Woody wrote:

[snip]


What is more no digging - all installed using by boring from the
street into the cellar using a small boring device on the end of a
control shaft. Whole street of about 40 houses done in less than a
week.


Our village is suffering major roadworks while Anglian Water
installs a new public sewer. This involves cutting a trench about
0.7 metre wide by between 2.5m and 5m deep along the length of the
road through the village. It seems to me that this work is an
obvious candidate for a boring device - yet the contractors tell me
that boring is much more expensive - it beats me why! Can anybody
explain?

While digging this trench they could have installed an empty duct
for other services (such as fibre) at almost nil cost - yet there
doesn't seem to be any obligation on them to do so. It follows that
next year or whenever we get fibre Openreach will probably dig up
the road again.

Is there a planning system in this country, or what?

--



My f-in-l was the MoH in a medium sized north Midlands town in the
60's and 70's. He tells the tale that the Borough Council decided it
needed to rebuild a piece of road on a sloping corner on one edge of
the town centre, and it was to be a major task. They wrote to all
parties concerned - electrikery, gas, water (and sewage) and GPO
Telephones (as it then was) - to advise them of their plans and the
timescale and asked that they look at their plans for future works to
see if the works could be brought forward so that they were done
before the road rebuild took place. No requirement from electric or
gas, water wanted to improve the storm drainage but they were due to
do that in part as part fo the rebuild. GPO did not reply despite
three letters including one via the local MP to the top dog.
Eventually they said no requirement.

Two weeks after the work was finished the GPO put in for permission to
replace some ducts - work that had been in planning for nearly a year.

No change there then?


--
Woody

harrogate3 at ntlworld dot com


  #25  
Old December 30th 17, 10:39 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 392
Default No copper infrastructure in UK so why is BT (British Telecum)Openroach in

On Saturday, 30 December 2017 14:20:34 UTC, Graham J wrote:
Woody wrote:

[snip]


What is more no digging - all installed using by boring from the
street into the cellar using a small boring device on the end of a
control shaft. Whole street of about 40 houses done in less than a
week.


Our village is suffering major roadworks while Anglian Water installs a
new public sewer. This involves cutting a trench about 0.7 metre wide
by between 2.5m and 5m deep along the length of the road through the
village. It seems to me that this work is an obvious candidate for a
boring device - yet the contractors tell me that boring is much more
expensive - it beats me why! Can anybody explain?



You can use a "mole" to make short, small wayleaves for electric, telecom or even water connections.

A main sewer (25cm+) can't really be installed this way and is too small to tunnel. Bigger sewers (1m+) often are tunnelled.


While digging this trench they could have installed an empty duct for
other services (such as fibre) at almost nil cost - yet there doesn't
seem to be any obligation on them to do so. It follows that next year
or whenever we get fibre Openreach will probably dig up the road again.

Is there a planning system in this country, or what?


In theory, but under current rules they will now pay for the privilege of digging a new trench.


--
Graham J


  #26  
Old December 30th 17, 11:18 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Invalid
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 132
Default No copper infrastructure in UK so why is BT (British Telecum) Openroach in

In message , R.
Mark Clayton writes
On Saturday, 30 December 2017 14:20:34 UTC, Graham J wrote:
Woody wrote:

[snip]


What is more no digging - all installed using by boring from the
street into the cellar using a small boring device on the end of a
control shaft. Whole street of about 40 houses done in less than a
week.


Our village is suffering major roadworks while Anglian Water installs a
new public sewer. This involves cutting a trench about 0.7 metre wide
by between 2.5m and 5m deep along the length of the road through the
village. It seems to me that this work is an obvious candidate for a
boring device - yet the contractors tell me that boring is much more
expensive - it beats me why! Can anybody explain?



You can use a "mole" to make short, small wayleaves for electric,
telecom or even water connections.

A main sewer (25cm+) can't really be installed this way and is too
small to tunnel. Bigger sewers (1m+) often are tunnelled.


While digging this trench they could have installed an empty duct for
other services (such as fibre) at almost nil cost - yet there doesn't
seem to be any obligation on them to do so. It follows that next year
or whenever we get fibre Openreach will probably dig up the road again.

Is there a planning system in this country, or what?


In theory, but under current rules they will now pay for the privilege
of digging a new trench.


--
Graham J


As I understand it the issue is spoil removal. In small holes, you
simply compact the spoil into the side of the tunnel. As long as it's
not rock the subsoil is soft enough to allow that.

For bigger tunnels that is not a viable option and you have to get the
waste material out. For big tunnels ( 1M?) there is enough room for a
proper tunnelling machine with a conveyor to carry away the spoil.

The intermediate sizes where there is insufficient room for a adequate
conveyor system is the issue.

Recently they replaced a fairly big sewer pipe here with a hydraulic
fracturing machine. The old concrete pipe was broken up and compacted
into the soil by a cone shaped "wedge" that was hauled through the old
pipe dragging the new plastic pipe behind it. But that relied on there
being an existing pipe and consequently little spoil to remove or
compact.

--
Invalid
  #27  
Old December 31st 17, 09:52 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 626
Default No copper infrastructure in UK so why is BT (British Telecum)Openroach in

Invalid wrote:

[snip]


As I understand it the issue is spoil removal. In small holes, you
simply compact the spoil into the side of the tunnel. As long as it's
not rock the subsoil is soft enough to allow that.

For bigger tunnels that is not a viable option and you have to get the
waste material out. For big tunnels ( 1M?) there is enough room for a
proper tunnelling machine with a conveyor to carry away the spoil.

The intermediate sizes where there is insufficient room for a adequate
conveyor system is the issue.

[snip]

An idea that comes immediately to mind for holes around 25cm diameter is
to crush the spoil to granules and flush it through the hole it is
drilling using water.

That idea took less time to think of than to write.

There must be any number of other extraction & disposal mechanisms that
could be developed by a small team of people with experience in the
business ...

--
Graham J


  #28  
Old December 31st 17, 10:30 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 392
Default No copper infrastructure in UK so why is BT (British Telecum)Openroach in

On Saturday, 30 December 2017 23:24:42 UTC, Invalid wrote:
In message , R.
Mark Clayton writes
On Saturday, 30 December 2017 14:20:34 UTC, Graham J wrote:
Woody wrote:

[snip]


What is more no digging - all installed using by boring from the
street into the cellar using a small boring device on the end of a
control shaft. Whole street of about 40 houses done in less than a
week.

Our village is suffering major roadworks while Anglian Water installs a
new public sewer. This involves cutting a trench about 0.7 metre wide
by between 2.5m and 5m deep along the length of the road through the
village. It seems to me that this work is an obvious candidate for a
boring device - yet the contractors tell me that boring is much more
expensive - it beats me why! Can anybody explain?



You can use a "mole" to make short, small wayleaves for electric,
telecom or even water connections.

A main sewer (25cm+) can't really be installed this way and is too
small to tunnel. Bigger sewers (1m+) often are tunnelled.


While digging this trench they could have installed an empty duct for
other services (such as fibre) at almost nil cost - yet there doesn't
seem to be any obligation on them to do so. It follows that next year
or whenever we get fibre Openreach will probably dig up the road again.

Is there a planning system in this country, or what?


In theory, but under current rules they will now pay for the privilege
of digging a new trench.


--
Graham J


As I understand it the issue is spoil removal. In small holes, you
simply compact the spoil into the side of the tunnel. As long as it's
not rock the subsoil is soft enough to allow that.

For bigger tunnels that is not a viable option and you have to get the
waste material out. For big tunnels ( 1M?) there is enough room for a
proper tunnelling machine with a conveyor to carry away the spoil.

The intermediate sizes where there is insufficient room for a adequate
conveyor system is the issue.

Recently they replaced a fairly big sewer pipe here with a hydraulic
fracturing machine. The old concrete pipe was broken up and compacted
into the soil by a cone shaped "wedge" that was hauled through the old
pipe dragging the new plastic pipe behind it. But that relied on there
being an existing pipe and consequently little spoil to remove or
compact.

--
Invalid


For mains gas they don't fracture the pipe, but build a big trench somewhere and feed the new inner plastic pipe in in sections that they weld together - AIUI they even manage to keep the gas on while doing it.
  #29  
Old December 31st 17, 10:33 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 392
Default No copper infrastructure in UK so why is BT (British Telecum)Openroach in

On Sunday, 31 December 2017 09:52:17 UTC, Graham J wrote:
Invalid wrote:

[snip]


As I understand it the issue is spoil removal. In small holes, you
simply compact the spoil into the side of the tunnel. As long as it's
not rock the subsoil is soft enough to allow that.

For bigger tunnels that is not a viable option and you have to get the
waste material out. For big tunnels ( 1M?) there is enough room for a
proper tunnelling machine with a conveyor to carry away the spoil.

The intermediate sizes where there is insufficient room for a adequate
conveyor system is the issue.

[snip]

An idea that comes immediately to mind for holes around 25cm diameter is
to crush the spoil to granules and flush it through the hole it is
drilling using water.

That idea took less time to think of than to write.

There must be any number of other extraction & disposal mechanisms that
could be developed by a small team of people with experience in the
business ...

--
Graham J


Like an air knife or similar https://www.airspade.com/

Already used in suitable locations.
  #30  
Old December 31st 17, 05:11 PM posted to uk.politics.misc,uk.misc,uk.finance,uk.telecom.broadband
Vir Campestris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 192
Default No copper infrastructure in UK so why is BT (British Telecum)Openroach in

On 30/12/2017 00:06, Paul Cummins wrote:
Are you sure? NO copper AT ALL? That's unbelievable, as there is copper
into ever single BT Served address, including those served by fibre...


I think you'll find there are exceptions.

The only reason we still have copper is BT's incompetence. We can make
outgoing calls from the port on our FTTP fibre, but they can't set the
computers up to route incoming calls that way.

We will remove the copper once they've got that worked out. Or
alternately, once we've switched ISP/Telco. I only picked BT because I
guessed (correctly) that Openreach would screw up the fibre install, and
that gave me a one-stop shop for complaints.

(Yes, I know, in theory it's the same with any ISP, but it's a bit
harder for BT to say "It's all BT's fault...")

Andy
 




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