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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

John Lewis Broadband versus TalkTalk for VDSL/FTTC (traffic shaping)



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 23rd 18, 11:11 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 419
Default John Lewis Broadband versus TalkTalk for VDSL/FTTC (traffic shaping)

On Monday, 22 January 2018 20:34:21 UTC, Winston Smith wrote:
Right now I have ADSL with Plus.net. Recently the the cabinet in my
street was fibre-enabled, and I can now get VDSL (FTTC).

Right now I am getting 1Mbps up/ 6Mbps down, and 65 ms ping. I will
be upgrading to 10Mbps up/38Mbps up. Will the ping time improve much?


Mine is about half that.


I can try to get a higher speed 76Mbps product, but I doubt I can get
that speed 300 meters away from the cabinet or that there would be any
improvement in latency.


300m - youshould get 52Mbps on BT Infinity 1 or near 76Mbps without difficulty.


To upgrade with plus.net, I need to sign a 18-months contract, which
being in a short-term tenancy is unacceptable. PN support told me
the 18 months is a requirement from offcom.


I think they lied.


John Lewis and TalkTalk offer 12-month contracts. I know John Lewis
does traffic shaping. How bad is traffic shaping for latency (ping
times)? Does TalkTalk do traffic shaping?


Dunno.


Any other suggestion for companies offering 12-month or shorter contracts?


BT just went to 18 months on the best deals. I think you can get shorter, but will have to pay for equipment. BT will IIRC let you move the contract when you move.
  #12  
Old January 23rd 18, 12:28 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Invalid
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 133
Default John Lewis Broadband versus TalkTalk for VDSL/FTTC (traffic shaping)

In message , Winston Smith
writes
Right now I have ADSL with Plus.net. Recently the the cabinet in my
street was fibre-enabled, and I can now get VDSL (FTTC).

Right now I am getting 1Mbps up/ 6Mbps down, and 65 ms ping. I will
be upgrading to 10Mbps up/38Mbps up. Will the ping time improve much?

I can try to get a higher speed 76Mbps product, but I doubt I can get
that speed 300 meters away from the cabinet or that there would be any
improvement in latency.

To upgrade with plus.net, I need to sign a 18-months contract, which
being in a short-term tenancy is unacceptable. PN support told me
the 18 months is a requirement from offcom.

John Lewis and TalkTalk offer 12-month contracts. I know John Lewis
does traffic shaping. How bad is traffic shaping for latency (ping
times)? Does TalkTalk do traffic shaping?

Any other suggestion for companies offering 12-month or shorter contracts?


I was in a similar position to you. I am 300-400M from the cabinet ( I
think - the routing is not obvious) but I have a fairly clean line.

When I had ADSL2 I was with Plusnet and use a Netgear router with DGTeam
firmware that allowed the SNR to be tweaked. I routinely ran at 4dB, and
got sync speeds of 6.5Mbps which were stable for long periods. SamKnows
record from that period show a Downstream average speed of 5.5Mbps and
0.5Mbps Upstream with latency of 25ms. The line was interleaved.

When the village was enabled with FTTC and I shifted I swapped to a
Billion 880NL router and got a solid 38/2 sync speed at SNR of 7.8 which
was the Plusnet offering at the time. SamKnows records after the switch
show downstream speed averaged 35.6Mbps, upstream of 1.7Mbps and latency
of 13.8ms.

So swapping from ADSL to FTTC just about halved my latency - but yours
looks very high.

I experimented with a BT Business Hub from E-bay as I wanted 5Ghz
wireless, and while experimenting something strange happened. One day
the router dropped the line and when it resynced the SNR went from 7.8dB
to 16+. The router now said that instead of a maximum possible speed of
42-45Mbps I should be able to get 65-72Mbps. As an experiment I switched
to Plusnet's 80/20 product and did get speeds of 65+ ( in fact going
back to the Billion gave me sync speeds of 70+). The SamKnows data shows
Download speeds off 62-63Mbps, upload speed 11.0Mbps and latency of 12ms
You can see the longer discussion at.

https://community.plus.net/t5/My-Rou...ange-SNR-behav
iour/m-p/1471848.

I have never established exactly what happened, but I suspect BT
implemented vectoring on the cabinet.

I am now on BT's 55/10* product with sync speeds of 54994/9999Mbps SNR
down of 8.0 and the router is telling me that I could get 72Mbps
down.The latest SamKnows data shows Download speeds of 50.3Mbps, Upload
of 8.4Mbps and latency of 17.2ms.

So ADSL does reduce latency, but yours seems high (what are you pinging
as a test?) Plusnet's latency is lower than BT's (doesn't bother me I am
not a gamer). Pinging www.google.com gets me about the same time as
SamKnows shows for latency.

Hope this helps.

*I swapped because of Plusnet's Market 1 pricing strategy not because
of their service see
https://community.plus.net/t5/Plusne...bites-the-dust
/m-p/1482610



--
Invalid
  #13  
Old January 23rd 18, 01:27 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Andy Burns[_5_]
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Posts: 212
Default John Lewis Broadband versus TalkTalk for VDSL/FTTC (trafficshaping)

R. Mark Clayton wrote:

Winston Smith wrote:

65 ms ping. Will the ping time improve much?


Mine is about half that.


And mine is about half yours, yet I see other FTTC users who have about
half of mine.

I don't think it's related to interleaving or G.INP, do some ISPs "break
out" of the openReach backhaul in a different way to get sub-10ms first
hop times?

  #14  
Old January 23rd 18, 01:52 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 419
Default John Lewis Broadband versus TalkTalk for VDSL/FTTC (traffic shaping)

On Tuesday, 23 January 2018 13:27:37 UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
R. Mark Clayton wrote:

Winston Smith wrote:

65 ms ping. Will the ping time improve much?


Mine is about half that.


And mine is about half yours, yet I see other FTTC users who have about
half of mine.

I don't think it's related to interleaving or G.INP, do some ISPs "break
out" of the openReach backhaul in a different way to get sub-10ms first
hop times?


Probably depends a lot of things - where the server is, number of hops, time of day etc.
  #15  
Old January 23rd 18, 01:59 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
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Posts: 90
Default John Lewis Broadband versus TalkTalk for VDSL/FTTC (trafficshaping)

On 23/01/2018 13:27, Andy Burns wrote:
R. Mark Clayton wrote:

Winston Smith wrote:

65 ms ping.* Will the ping time improve much?


It would be difficult for it to get worse.

Mine is about half that.


And mine is about half yours, yet I see other FTTC users who have about
half of mine.


I'm on basic copper ADSL noisy old rural long line and I still get a
40ms ping with Interleaving on and a 5M sync rate down 448k up.

I used to have 20ms ping back when the line noise was low enough to
support fastpath but the line has slowly degraded with time. I get a
significant number of (hard) error seconds per day. There is a tree
rubbing the line somewhere and eventually it will fail again.

I don't think it's related to interleaving or G.INP, do some ISPs "break
out" of the openReach backhaul in a different way to get sub-10ms first
hop times?


I reckon empirically interleaving adds at least 10ms to ping on a 5M
sync - it may be proportionately less on a 50M sync rate.

BTW Plusnet do twelve month contracts you just need to click on the
right tab on their website. It may still be cheaper to have an 18 month
contract and pay the early cancellation fees though.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #16  
Old January 23rd 18, 02:46 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Winston Smith[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default John Lewis Broadband versus TalkTalk for VDSL/FTTC (traffic shaping)

65 ms ping. Will the ping time improve much?

Mine is about half that.


And mine is about half yours, yet I see other FTTC users who have about
half of mine.

I don't think it's related to interleaving or G.INP, do some ISPs "break
out" of the openReach backhaul in a different way to get sub-10ms first
hop times?


Probably depends a lot of things - where the server is, number of hops, time of day etc.


Yes, the ping times seem to depend a lot on which server you are using.

I am testing again today and the speed test from google (it uses a
server in London) and it gives again 65 ms. If I go to the test in
thinkbroadband.co.uk, it gives me 45 ms.

If I do myself 'ping bbc.co.uk' I get 32 ms (I am not sure if I
should compare this number with the test servers). And I am repeating
all the tests at the same time of the day.

The distance from my house to the exchange is 1 mile (as the pigeon flies).
The wire is likely 1.5 miles long.
  #17  
Old January 23rd 18, 02:58 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Winston Smith[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default John Lewis Broadband versus TalkTalk for VDSL/FTTC (traffic shaping)

BTW Plusnet do twelve month contracts you just need to click on the
right tab on their website. It may still be cheaper to have an 18 month
contract and pay the early cancellation fees though.


They used to offer 12 month contracts in 2016, but they don't offer
them anymore.
  #18  
Old January 23rd 18, 03:05 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 90
Default John Lewis Broadband versus TalkTalk for VDSL/FTTC (trafficshaping)

On 23/01/2018 14:58, Winston Smith wrote:
BTW Plusnet do twelve month contracts you just need to click on the
right tab on their website. It may still be cheaper to have an 18 month
contract and pay the early cancellation fees though.


They used to offer 12 month contracts in 2016, but they don't offer
them anymore.


They are still advertising them on their website today.
Right hand tab or scroll down
(also no annual contract but for ADSL and not for fibre)

https://www.plus.net/home-broadband/

Note that the relative prices may still make it more favourable to take
an 18 month deal and pay to break the contract (read all small print).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #19  
Old January 23rd 18, 03:12 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Andy Burns[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 212
Default John Lewis Broadband versus TalkTalk for VDSL/FTTC (trafficshaping)

Winston Smith wrote:

Yes, the ping times seem to depend a lot on which server you are using.


I'm more talking about the first hop on a traceroute, obviously the
PPPoE session has gone over various kit that's invisible to the IP layer
before reaching the ISP's edge router

Once it gets to the ISP (about 15ms) then huge swathes of the internet
seem to be only 1 or 2ms extra away from there thanks to CDNs etc.

But I see some people with 8-9ms as the first hop, and I'm curious
what's the difference for those ISPs

Tracing route to google.com [172.217.23.46]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 2 ms 1 ms 1 ms hh5a.lan [192.168.1.1]
2 15 ms 16 ms 16 ms
410.xe-2-2-0.central10.psb-bng04.plus.net [84.93.253.120]
3 16 ms 16 ms 16 ms 411.be8.psb-ir02.plus.net [84.93.253.127]
4 17 ms 16 ms 16 ms 195.99.125.142
5 17 ms 17 ms 17 ms peer1-xe0-1-1.faraday.ukcore.bt.net
[213.121.193.205]
6 16 ms 16 ms 16 ms 109.159.253.67
7 19 ms 17 ms 18 ms 108.170.246.193
8 17 ms 17 ms 17 ms 108.170.235.107
9 17 ms 17 ms 16 ms lhr35s02-in-f14.1e100.net [172.217.23.46]

  #20  
Old January 23rd 18, 05:32 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Winston Smith[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default John Lewis Broadband versus TalkTalk for VDSL/FTTC (traffic shaping)

They are still advertising them on their website today.
Right hand tab or scroll down
(also no annual contract but for ADSL and not for fibre)

https://www.plus.net/home-broadband/

Note that the relative prices may still make it more favourable to take
an 18 month deal and pay to break the contract (read all small print).


It's funny that they offer 12 months to new customers, but I only see
18 a months when I login in my customer account with plus.net.

What's even worse is that new customers get 24 pounds a month and no
activation fee in Unlimited Fibre (18 months). To me, as an existing
customer they offer unlimited fibre at 34 per month (18 months).

The only way to deal with this nonsense is to leave for another
company after the contract ends.

What I am going to do is to join NowTV. They offer a deal with with a
44 setup fee and no minimum term. They are Sky resellers, and they
say they don't have traffic management.

https://help.nowtv.com/article/now-t...agement-policy
 




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