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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

BT HH4 speed issue



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 21st 18, 10:59 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 723
Default BT HH4 speed issue

Woody wrote:

[snip]

2. If a line is ever audibly noisy report it to the voice service
provider (exaggerate if necessary, say it so bad you can't hear the
other party). Don't mention broadband - it only confuses them.


Audio IMO is slightly low and there is quite noticable hiss but no
crackle on a quiet line test. The second line (house) has such bad
crackle that they don't use it preferring to stick to mobiles. I have
suggested reporting it as audio noise as I know BT do not guarantee
anything else.


Noticeable hiss can be an indication of a diode-like joint somewhere
between the router and the exchange. Power off the router, then dial
17070 and invoke the "quiet line test". Is the hiss still present?
Power on the router and continute to listen to the line: does the hiss
get worse as the router achieves sync?? If so that generally indicates
a bad joint, but it can also indicate a faulty microfilter.

Openreach will find such faults, but generally only when pressure is
applied from the ISP. This is why he must change ISP.


3. For diagnostics use a router that supports RouterStats,
see: http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm
... and monitor the line performance.


The router is as supplied by BT and for the sake of mental comfort I
think our friend would prefer to stay with that so that it is all in
BT's hands.


Not a good idea, see below.

4. Change ISP to one that will provide proper technical support.
This means (given that it is a business) either Zen Internet or
Andrews & Arnold. If the performance is anything less than expected
report it and follow the faultfinding procedures requested by their
technical support.


He does not want to change ISP as he is on quite a good deal.


This is just stupid. Does he want it to work? If so he must change ISP
and be prepared to install a decent router. Also to apply some time and
effort to the problem. If he's happy with the poor service then he
might save a few pennies, and you should be very clear that you are not
going to get involved.

[snip]

--
Graham J
  #12  
Old February 21st 18, 11:18 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Woody
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 686
Default BT HH4 speed issue

[snip]

That is a bit of an odd combination. If the SNR is so bad as to only
support a 1.6Mb sync rate why is the upload speed not pegged at
448k?
And more than that why is it still on FASTPATH with sub 20ms pings?

It would almost certainly benefit from interleaving error correction
on and the upload speed dropping. Resynching at a time of day where
radio interference is strongest will force a slightly more robust
connection. My ping is about 40ms due to interleaving being on.

It would be worth trying the bellwire hack on the slower lines to
see if it will help improve rejection of RF noise. It gained me
+50%. YMMV

[snip]

The 19mS ping was yesterday when running at 1.6Mb but I have seen
pings of 180mS or more and many commonly in the 30-80mS range.

Not quite sure what the bellwire hack is and as there is no phone on
the line what effect can the hack have?

Interleaving error correction on: where do I find that in a HH4?

As far as I can tell there is no radio interference, it is purely a
line issue.

Your further advice will be welcomed - the e-mail address below is
valid.

--
Woody

harrogate3 at ntlworld dot com


  #13  
Old February 21st 18, 12:11 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 547
Default BT HH4 speed issue

On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 09:49:28 UTC, NY wrote:
"R. Mark Clayton" wrote in message
...
Anyone any suggestions on either or both questions?

Woody


1. Get a HH6 or Draytek 2960 (better).
2. Ring the number the router is on and let it ring out for a couple of
minutes.


Does a burst of ringing current (let the phone ring for a couple of minutes)
really tend to improve bad joints in the overhead/underground wire-pair,
causing better broadband stats and sync speed - or is this apocryphal?


Tends to improve things when I try it.
  #14  
Old February 21st 18, 12:12 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 547
Default BT HH4 speed issue

On Tuesday, 20 February 2018 20:40:07 UTC, 7 wrote:
Woody wrote:

A friend who is a farmer also runs a small caravan site and has provided
free wi-fi for his guests. He is at the end of almost 3000m of (mainly)
overhead line and so the download speed is slow.

When we arrived on site last month it was doing almost 1.6Mb. We then had
two nights of heavy rain and frighteningly high winds. When I checked
again the download was only 650K but the upload was unchanged at about
760K. The farm is in East Somerset: Speedtest using Vodafone servers at
Newbury gives about 19mS ping.

When we revisited this month the speed was unchanged - 650K and 760K.
Today I power cycled the HH4 and within 10 minutes it was doing 1.53Mb:
now, some 6 hours later it is doing just over 1.8Mb with upload still at
760K.

Two questions:

Should the HH4 have retrained to the higher speed without need for power
cycle intervention, should I try to get himself to use a better router, or
is this a BTOR issue? All lines incidentally are through BT Business.

The overhead carries four pairs all of which are active and carry their
own broadband. BT dslchecker indicates two lines (those used for the
campers and the domestic B/B) should be able to do 1-3Mb, the third line
(used for the farm business) should be able to do 2.5-3.5Mb, and the
fourth line (used by his son's business) should be able to handle 2-6Mb -
and indeed this seems to be the case, today the latter line was doing
5.86Mb. It baffles me that four lines all running the same route and in
the same cable (there are no streetcabs on this exchange) can have such
speed variation. They are all direct exchange lines (fibre is not
available on this exchange and there is no LLU) and have a single U/G and
O/H cable feed. About six houses in a
hamlet that also use the same feed (split at a pole-top DP) I am told
also suffer from slow speeds. For the record I have done quiet line tests
on the campers line and on the high-speed (!) line: the campers line is (a
bit) lower audio level than the other and has noticeably more hiss on it
but neither has any crackling and both ring without problem.

Anyone any suggestions on either or both questions?

Woody


Never ask for copper broadband instead ask for cheapest
symmetric fibre internet provisioning costs. If they
lie about the cost, take them to court.

Insist that fibre be unbundled and ask Openroach to connect
you with cheap symmetric fibre from their 10gbit
cabinet down the 3km trek.

Obviously they are going to fish out their krone tools
and master bait in bewilderment so be sure to post the photos.


but don't ask Hyperoptic, since they hardly serve anywhere.
  #15  
Old February 21st 18, 12:20 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Bob Eager[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 131
Default BT HH4 speed issue

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 03:11:53 -0800, R. Mark Clayton wrote:

On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 09:49:28 UTC, NY wrote:
"R. Mark Clayton" wrote in message
...
Anyone any suggestions on either or both questions?

Woody

1. Get a HH6 or Draytek 2960 (better).
2. Ring the number the router is on and let it ring out for a couple
of minutes.


Does a burst of ringing current (let the phone ring for a couple of
minutes)
really tend to improve bad joints in the overhead/underground
wire-pair, causing better broadband stats and sync speed - or is this
apocryphal?


Tends to improve things when I try it.


Definitely worked for me. There was an intermittent fault in the tie pair
between the fibre cabinet and the old POTS cabinet (which are about 20
metres apart). It took about two weeks to get it diagnosed and sorted.

Meanwhile, the line would drop out completely having stayed up for
between five minutes and about three hours. Every time, a good ring to
the number would wake it up again.
  #16  
Old February 21st 18, 12:22 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 129
Default BT HH4 speed issue

On 21/02/2018 08:26, Woody wrote:
"Graham J" wrote in message
news
Woody wrote:
A friend who is a farmer also runs a small caravan site and has
provided
free wi-fi for his guests. He is at the end of almost 3000m of
(mainly)
overhead line and so the download speed is slow.

[snip]
Anyone any suggestions on either or both questions?


1. Get all the internal wiring up to scratch: faceplate filter in
proper master socket, no legacy extension wiring connected anywhere
between master socket and exchange (such unterminated stubs can be
quite common on farm installations); all necessary extensions wired
correctly to the faceplate filter.


The line comes in direct from the overhead (new BT install) to the
NTE5, there are no other line connections to it and no phone either.
It is fitted with an iPlate3 filter.


OK. So no improvements possible there then.

2. If a line is ever audibly noisy report it to the voice service
provider (exaggerate if necessary, say it so bad you can't hear the
other party). Don't mention broadband - it only confuses them.


+1 Reporting noisy lines with crackles is a good first step.
Making the engineers check over all the junction boxes along the cable
path might resolve both issues by remaking dodgy connections.

Hearing hissing on the line hints at rectification occurring somewhere
in the signal path. Is there any aluminium wiring known to be in the
area - that is very effective are wrecking ADSL throughput.

Audio IMO is slightly low and there is quite noticable hiss but no
crackle on a quiet line test. The second line (house) has such bad
crackle that they don't use it preferring to stick to mobiles. I have
suggested reporting it as audio noise as I know BT do not guarantee
anything else.


I'd suggest reporting the one with the bad crackle and get that fixed.
If you can get two lines that will support 5M sync you are home and dry.

3. For diagnostics use a router that supports RouterStats,
see: http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm
... and monitor the line performance.


The router is as supplied by BT and for the sake of mental comfort I
think our friend would prefer to stay with that so that it is all in
BT's hands.


While you are there it should be possible to run another router to
provide the same function as the HH4 and run routerstats. I have never
been able to find any decent signal diagnostics on a BT HH.

4. Change ISP to one that will provide proper technical support.
This means (given that it is a business) either Zen Internet or
Andrews & Arnold. If the performance is anything less than expected
report it and follow the faultfinding procedures requested by their
technical support.


He does not want to change ISP as he is on quite a good deal. There is
no LLU on the exchange - indeed broadband to the exchange is on co-ax,
there is no fibre.


Nunney shows like my exchange as ADSL Max FTTC available some areas.

It may be worth finding a local support business familiar with
resolving broadband issues - if you can be more specific about the
location perhaps this ng can make a recommendation.


The exchange is Nunney, near Frome in E. Somerset.


SuperfastDevonandSomerset (Gigaclear) are installing fibre for BT in
the area and our friend has been told by BT that fibre will be passing
the end of his lane later this year - which of course means nothing -
but I think he wants to hang on. The Gigaclear web site indicates it
could be up to 3 years before fibre gets to his area.


That is likely going to be like the ultra-high pressure gas main that
passes the end of our village. We are in the evacuation zone for a leak
but gain no benefit from it whatsoever.

The one technology which has worked for our village is Clannet now
Quickline but its microwave dish rollout is for Yorkshire only:

http://www.quickline.co.uk/map/

Just about all the farmers are on it now at ~20Mbps. If there is a
similar local microwave initiative that is well worth a look.

He could of course go 4G: there is a 3 tower within about 900m LoS
that carries EE4G but only 3G on 3; there is Vodafone 4G on an
electricity pylon about 600m away, and O2 4G which I suspect is from a
hilltop site about 1.5Km away, all of which would work.


EE4G or Three would be my choices there - only because throwaway cheap
offer data SIMs for both are reasonable value if you wait for them. Just
did a quick data only search and Vodaphone comes out top for 50GB/month.

It would be worth costing it out to see if an all you can eat mobile
data contract works out cheaper than 2x BT line rentals. Might be close!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #17  
Old February 21st 18, 12:22 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 723
Default BT HH4 speed issue

NY wrote:
"R. Mark Clayton" wrote in message
...
Anyone any suggestions on either or both questions?

Woody


1. Get a HH6 or Draytek 2960 (better).
2. Ring the number the router is on and let it ring out for a couple
of minutes.


Does a burst of ringing current (let the phone ring for a couple of
minutes) really tend to improve bad joints in the overhead/underground
wire-pair, causing better broadband stats and sync speed - or is this
apocryphal?



It's theoretically possible.

Ringing voltage (in the UK) is typically 75v AC (at 17Hz or 25Hz). If
the bad joint behaves as a diode then the reverse voltage across the
diode could be about 106v (75 * 2^(0.5)) which might be enough to cause
the diode to fail. If it fails to a short circuit, the line then works
properly; but it may fail again in time.

Of course, it might fail to an open circuit in which case the line won't
recognise the off-hook condition so won't make or receive calls; it's
then for the voice service provider to fix.

--
Graham J

  #18  
Old February 21st 18, 12:22 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 129
Default BT HH4 speed issue

On 21/02/2018 10:18, Woody wrote:
[snip]

That is a bit of an odd combination. If the SNR is so bad as to only
support a 1.6Mb sync rate why is the upload speed not pegged at
448k?
And more than that why is it still on FASTPATH with sub 20ms pings?

It would almost certainly benefit from interleaving error correction
on and the upload speed dropping. Resynching at a time of day where
radio interference is strongest will force a slightly more robust
connection. My ping is about 40ms due to interleaving being on.

It would be worth trying the bellwire hack on the slower lines to
see if it will help improve rejection of RF noise. It gained me
+50%. YMMV

[snip]

The 19mS ping was yesterday when running at 1.6Mb but I have seen
pings of 180mS or more and many commonly in the 30-80mS range.


It is still a bit odd to get sub 20ms pings at all on a bad line.

If it drops packets then the exponential delays will kick in but that
you get 20ms is something of a minor miracle (probably not helping).

The fast upload speed is a hindrance not a help.

Not quite sure what the bellwire hack is and as there is no phone on
the line what effect can the hack have?


It is a DIY version of a filtered line. But you have already said you
have that so its probably irrelevant. It works wonders on old phone
wiring in rural cottages where the bellwire is just hanging in the
breeze picking up RF interference from everywhere.

Interleaving error correction on: where do I find that in a HH4?


Heaven knows. I have never been able to find anything useful on a BT HH
- I carry a surplus reliable modem with me for fault finding that will
allow routerstats light to do its stuff. A 24 hour record may show if
there are particular times of day when bad things happen.

As far as I can tell there is no radio interference, it is purely a
line issue.


Your further advice will be welcomed - the e-mail address below is
valid.


Mine is also valid provided you make no modifications at all.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #19  
Old February 21st 18, 12:24 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Bob Eager[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 131
Default BT HH4 speed issue

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:20:04 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 03:11:53 -0800, R. Mark Clayton wrote:

On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 09:49:28 UTC, NY wrote:
"R. Mark Clayton" wrote in message
...
Anyone any suggestions on either or both questions?

Woody

1. Get a HH6 or Draytek 2960 (better).
2. Ring the number the router is on and let it ring out for a couple
of minutes.

Does a burst of ringing current (let the phone ring for a couple of
minutes)
really tend to improve bad joints in the overhead/underground
wire-pair, causing better broadband stats and sync speed - or is this
apocryphal?


Tends to improve things when I try it.


Definitely worked for me. There was an intermittent fault in the tie
pair between the fibre cabinet and the old POTS cabinet (which are about
20 metres apart). It took about two weeks to get it diagnosed and
sorted.

Meanwhile, the line would drop out completely having stayed up for
between five minutes and about three hours. Every time, a good ring to
the number would wake it up again.


Correction: it's actually about 60 metres separation between the fibre
and POTS cabinets. So quite a lot to look at.
  #20  
Old February 21st 18, 12:32 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 723
Default BT HH4 speed issue

Woody wrote:
[snip]

That is a bit of an odd combination. If the SNR is so bad as to only
support a 1.6Mb sync rate why is the upload speed not pegged at
448k?
And more than that why is it still on FASTPATH with sub 20ms pings?

It would almost certainly benefit from interleaving error correction
on and the upload speed dropping. Resynching at a time of day where
radio interference is strongest will force a slightly more robust
connection. My ping is about 40ms due to interleaving being on.

It would be worth trying the bellwire hack on the slower lines to
see if it will help improve rejection of RF noise. It gained me
+50%. YMMV

[snip]

The 19mS ping was yesterday when running at 1.6Mb but I have seen
pings of 180mS or more and many commonly in the 30-80mS range.

Not quite sure what the bellwire hack is and as there is no phone on
the line what effect can the hack have?

Interleaving error correction on: where do I find that in a HH4?


[snip]

Interleaving is controlled from the exchange equipment and can be
configured by the ISP. This is why you need to work with an ISP that
understands the issue.

Ping is probably not a good indication of circuit quality; sync rate,
SNR margin, and loop attenuation for both upstream and downstream
directions are a better guide.

Long term monitoring of these parameters is worthwhile. The SNR margin
may vary a couple of dB day to night and the downstream sync speed may
adapt accordingly. The loop attenuation should not vary (although the
router's measuring ability may show a dB variation with time).

The upstream sync rate is limited by the service type (ADSL, ADSL2,
ADSL2+, etc.) and by configuration of the exchange equipment. A good
ISP can tell you what it should be, and adjust it if necesary. Some
users would prefer to get more download speed (perhaps another
500kbits/sec) by reducing upload speed from 1400k to 832k to 448k
depending on the service type.

--
Graham J


 




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