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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

Changing a router



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 9th 18, 10:11 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Woody
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 667
Default Changing a router

I asked on here a few weeks ago about routers that self reboot to
overcome a problem that a farmer friend has. He is at the end of a
long line (3Km) and usually gets about 1.6Mb. However sometimes, often
after wet/windy weather, the speed drops to around to 650Kb and it can
only be made to go back up by power cycling the mains. I will be
seeing him shortly and I have a 24hr timeswitch which I will suggest
should be set to go off for one period (15 mins) in the early hours so
the router keeps at the higher speed as much as possible. (I would add
that upload is around 760Kb at all times - that never changes.)

He is on BT B/B and they have supplied a BTHH4. I have a spare BTHH5
here (just a collection as I'm on cable) and I wondered if the
assembled throng on this group have any thoughts as to whether it
might work better in this situation than the HH4. I know it won't
retrain but if it is better at resolving the incoming signal in the
first place would it be more reliable - even without the timeswitch?

I know a better router and/or a better ISP would be the answer but he
is a business user with four circuits all with B/B and all with BT. I
know he feels more comfortable staying with one provider that he
'knows' and for some reason seems to have faith in so I would not
dream of suggesting he move.

TIA


--
Woody

harrogate3 at ntlworld dot com


  #2  
Old March 9th 18, 10:31 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
NY
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 374
Default Changing a router

"Woody" wrote in message
news
I asked on here a few weeks ago about routers that self reboot to overcome
a problem that a farmer friend has. He is at the end of a long line (3Km)
and usually gets about 1.6Mb. However sometimes, often after wet/windy
weather, the speed drops to around to 650Kb and it can only be made to go
back up by power cycling the mains. I will be seeing him shortly and I
have a 24hr timeswitch which I will suggest should be set to go off for
one period (15 mins) in the early hours so the router keeps at the higher
speed as much as possible. (I would add that upload is around 760Kb at all
times - that never changes.)

He is on BT B/B and they have supplied a BTHH4. I have a spare BTHH5 here
(just a collection as I'm on cable) and I wondered if the assembled throng
on this group have any thoughts as to whether it might work better in this
situation than the HH4. I know it won't retrain but if it is better at
resolving the incoming signal in the first place would it be more
reliable - even without the timeswitch?

I know a better router and/or a better ISP would be the answer but he is a
business user with four circuits all with B/B and all with BT. I know he
feels more comfortable staying with one provider that he 'knows' and for
some reason seems to have faith in so I would not dream of suggesting he
move.


Some routers *may* be a little more sensitive than others and so may cope
better with large attenuation, but I would imagine that most of the problem
is with signal-to-noise ratio, so a more powerful amplifier in the router
wouldn't help much.

Low data rate is a real problem. If the connection is reliable (but slow)
that's a great deal better than a connection which is sometimes slow but
which keeps disconnecting altogether.

We've just moved house, and until we find somewhere to move to, we've
staying at my parents' holiday cottage in Wensleydale, and the speed is very
slow: about 1.8 (D) / 0.3 (U), which is quite a change compared with about
20 / 6 which we were getting at the old house with FTTC.

I suggest your friend does the same as I'm going to do: check every
junction, cable and microfilter in case it's possible to squeeze a small
improvement. Maybe try with the router as close to the incoming cable as
possible - in the master socket with the faceplate removed, if he has a
removable-faceplate socket - to eliminate the effect of any wiring around
the house. This may at least point the finger at where the problem may lie.

But it is likely that the problem will be due to long underground/overground
cable to the exchange and bad joints along the way, which is down to BT OR
to fix, if you can get them interested via BT Internet as the ISP.

  #3  
Old March 9th 18, 10:35 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 680
Default Changing a router

Woody wrote:
I asked on here a few weeks ago about routers that self reboot to
overcome a problem that a farmer friend has. He is at the end of a
long line (3Km) and usually gets about 1.6Mb. However sometimes, often
after wet/windy weather, the speed drops to around to 650Kb and it can
only be made to go back up by power cycling the mains. I will be
seeing him shortly and I have a 24hr timeswitch which I will suggest
should be set to go off for one period (15 mins) in the early hours so
the router keeps at the higher speed as much as possible. (I would add
that upload is around 760Kb at all times - that never changes.)

He is on BT B/B and they have supplied a BTHH4. I have a spare BTHH5
here (just a collection as I'm on cable) and I wondered if the
assembled throng on this group have any thoughts as to whether it
might work better in this situation than the HH4. I know it won't
retrain but if it is better at resolving the incoming signal in the
first place would it be more reliable - even without the timeswitch?

I know a better router and/or a better ISP would be the answer but he
is a business user with four circuits all with B/B and all with BT. I
know he feels more comfortable staying with one provider that he
'knows' and for some reason seems to have faith in so I would not
dream of suggesting he move.


Draytek routers (e.g. Vigor V2830) can be programmed to reboot once per
day at a specific time.

But a 3km line should achieve about 7 Mbits/sec. Can you report the
sync speeds, SNR margin, and loop attenuation figures please? It may be
that the line takes a tortuous route and is actually nearer 5km in
length. see:

https://www.increasebroadbandspeed.c...ersus-distance


As I have said before, if he wants a reliable system, comfort with his
existing supplier should be the first thing to go. He should approach
Zen Internet to migrate all four lines to them for rental, calls and
broadband; then go back to BT and challenge them to fix his line or he
will take all his business elsewhere. You could provide further
encouragement by explaining that you will not support him unless he
makes this migration.

--
Graham J


  #4  
Old March 9th 18, 10:43 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Woody
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 667
Default Changing a router


"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...
"Woody" wrote in message
news
I asked on here a few weeks ago about routers that self reboot to
overcome a problem that a farmer friend has. He is at the end of a
long line (3Km) and usually gets about 1.6Mb. However sometimes,
often after wet/windy weather, the speed drops to around to 650Kb
and it can only be made to go back up by power cycling the mains. I
will be seeing him shortly and I have a 24hr timeswitch which I
will suggest should be set to go off for one period (15 mins) in
the early hours so the router keeps at the higher speed as much as
possible. (I would add that upload is around 760Kb at all times -
that never changes.)

He is on BT B/B and they have supplied a BTHH4. I have a spare
BTHH5 here (just a collection as I'm on cable) and I wondered if
the assembled throng on this group have any thoughts as to whether
it might work better in this situation than the HH4. I know it
won't retrain but if it is better at resolving the incoming signal
in the first place would it be more reliable - even without the
timeswitch?

I know a better router and/or a better ISP would be the answer but
he is a business user with four circuits all with B/B and all with
BT. I know he feels more comfortable staying with one provider that
he 'knows' and for some reason seems to have faith in so I would
not dream of suggesting he move.


Some routers *may* be a little more sensitive than others and so may
cope better with large attenuation, but I would imagine that most of
the problem is with signal-to-noise ratio, so a more powerful
amplifier in the router wouldn't help much.

Low data rate is a real problem. If the connection is reliable (but
slow) that's a great deal better than a connection which is
sometimes slow but which keeps disconnecting altogether.

We've just moved house, and until we find somewhere to move to,
we've staying at my parents' holiday cottage in Wensleydale, and the
speed is very slow: about 1.8 (D) / 0.3 (U), which is quite a change
compared with about 20 / 6 which we were getting at the old house
with FTTC.

I suggest your friend does the same as I'm going to do: check every
junction, cable and microfilter in case it's possible to squeeze a
small improvement. Maybe try with the router as close to the
incoming cable as possible - in the master socket with the faceplate
removed, if he has a removable-faceplate socket - to eliminate the
effect of any wiring around the house. This may at least point the
finger at where the problem may lie.

But it is likely that the problem will be due to long
underground/overground cable to the exchange and bad joints along
the way, which is down to BT OR to fix, if you can get them
interested via BT Internet as the ISP.



The line was terminated with a NTE5 direct from the pole and with a
MK3 iPlate on the front - you don't get much better than that! The
router is direct into and the only connection to the line - it is not
used for speech.

I did try putting a phone on it an letting it ring a bit but it made
no difference. I have asked if they have an old farmyard bell that
could be put on the line. Since such bells have a REN of 4 it could
also help clearing poor contacts - I'm waiting for an answer on that
one.

Another line that does have a phone on it is not used for speech as it
is so noisy. When I see him I'll push that he has a real go at BT on
the basis of an unusable speech line and get the other three lines
(one of which comfortably does 5.8Mb) checked at each junction en
route. However getting BT let alone OR to recognise that each circuit
in a four-pair O/H cable has similar problems I fear may not be so
easy. I have suggested he get his local MP involved.


--
Woody

harrogate3 at ntlworld dot com


  #5  
Old March 9th 18, 10:54 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Tim+[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 135
Default Changing a router

Woody wrote:
I asked on here a few weeks ago about routers that self reboot to
overcome a problem that a farmer friend has. He is at the end of a
long line (3Km) and usually gets about 1.6Mb. However sometimes, often
after wet/windy weather, the speed drops to around to 650Kb and it can
only be made to go back up by power cycling the mains. I will be
seeing him shortly and I have a 24hr timeswitch which I will suggest
should be set to go off for one period (15 mins) in the early hours so
the router keeps at the higher speed as much as possible. (I would add
that upload is around 760Kb at all times - that never changes.)

He is on BT B/B and they have supplied a BTHH4. I have a spare BTHH5
here (just a collection as I'm on cable) and I wondered if the
assembled throng on this group have any thoughts as to whether it
might work better in this situation than the HH4. I know it won't
retrain but if it is better at resolving the incoming signal in the
first place would it be more reliable - even without the timeswitch?

I know a better router and/or a better ISP would be the answer but he
is a business user with four circuits all with B/B and all with BT. I
know he feels more comfortable staying with one provider that he
'knows' and for some reason seems to have faith in so I would not
dream of suggesting he move.

TIA



GSM remote power switch?

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m... 231475549036

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls
  #6  
Old March 9th 18, 11:51 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 103
Default Changing a router

On 09/03/2018 10:43, Woody wrote:

Another line that does have a phone on it is not used for speech as it
is so noisy. When I see him I'll push that he has a real go at BT on
the basis of an unusable speech line and get the other three lines
(one of which comfortably does 5.8Mb) checked at each junction en
route. However getting BT let alone OR to recognise that each circuit
in a four-pair O/H cable has similar problems I fear may not be so
easy. I have suggested he get his local MP involved.


My suggestion would be for him to make that his main complaint even if
it is for a voice line he never uses. In the process of checking that
line for faults the engineer will inevitably end up checking the joints
on the other lines into the property.

Tell him tea & biscuits and a quiet word with the engineer who turns up
about the slow unreliable internet with disconnects ought to do it.
If BT were any good they would have solved it by now.

The wet weather connection suggests to me somewhere there is a black
policemans helmet junction with water inside it. There was one in front
of my house. When they dug it up and shook it sounded like maracas!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #7  
Old March 9th 18, 01:16 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Roderick Stewart
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 496
Default Changing a router

On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 10:35:19 +0000, Graham J
wrote:

Draytek routers (e.g. Vigor V2830) can be programmed to reboot once per
day at a specific time.


Wouldn't the system see that as a frequent loss of sync, indicating a
fault, and lower the data rate accordingly?

Or would it be intelligent enough to recognise it as deliberate if it
occurs at regular intervals?

Rod.
  #8  
Old March 9th 18, 02:30 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 103
Default Changing a router

On 09/03/2018 10:35, Graham J wrote:
Woody wrote:


I know a better router and/or a better ISP would be the answer but he
is a business user with four circuits all with B/B and all with BT. I
know he feels more comfortable staying with one provider that he
'knows' and for some reason seems to have faith in so I would not
dream of suggesting he move.


Draytek routers (e.g. Vigor V2830) can be programmed to reboot once per
day at a specific time.

But a 3km line should achieve about 7 Mbits/sec.* Can you report the
sync speeds, SNR margin, and loop attenuation figures please?* It may be
that the line takes a tortuous route and is actually nearer 5km in
length.* see:

https://www.increasebroadbandspeed.c...ersus-distance


Mine is about 5km or 3+miles to the exchange and I get 5Mbps after doing
every trick I know to get a clean line. The median round here is 2Mbps.

As I have said before, if he wants a reliable system, comfort with his
existing supplier should be the first thing to go.* He should approach
Zen Internet to migrate all four lines to them for rental, calls and
broadband; then go back to BT and challenge them to fix his line or he
will take all his business elsewhere.* You could provide further
encouragement by explaining that you will not support him unless he
makes this migration.


He may well not need all four lines if a couple of them were working
properly at a sensible sync rate. He should ask if the upload speed
could be traded to get a better download speed too.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #9  
Old March 9th 18, 03:12 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 680
Default Changing a router

Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 10:35:19 +0000, Graham J
wrote:

Draytek routers (e.g. Vigor V2830) can be programmed to reboot once per
day at a specific time.


Wouldn't the system see that as a frequent loss of sync, indicating a
fault, and lower the data rate accordingly?

Or would it be intelligent enough to recognise it as deliberate if it
occurs at regular intervals?


I suspect the Openreach DLM (Dynamic Line Management) mechanism reduces
the sync speed when there is more noise. At the reduced speed fewer
"bins" carry data (usually those at higher frequencies because it is
these that are more susceptible to noise especially on a long line) so
the SNR margin returns to something nearer 6dB.

However a sudden total loss of sync doesn't affect the DLM in this way.
Some routers even send a "disconnecting now" signal before rebooting so
the DLM understands what is going on.

--
Graham J

  #10  
Old March 9th 18, 03:19 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
NY
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 374
Default Changing a router

"Graham J" wrote in message
news
However a sudden total loss of sync doesn't affect the DLM in this way.
Some routers even send a "disconnecting now" signal before rebooting so
the DLM understands what is going on.


That assumes the the router is set to disconnect tidily. A low-tech solution
like turning off the power for a short time every night will not do that.

 




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