A Broadband and ADSL forum. BroadbanterBanter

Welcome to BroadbanterBanter.

You are currently viewing as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today.

Go Back   Home » BroadbanterBanter forum » Newsgroup Discussions » uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband)
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

UK fibre to home to be rolled out by franchise holders



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old March 14th 18, 11:08 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Vir Campestris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 192
Default UK fibre to home to be rolled out by franchise holders

On 12/03/2018 21:35, Tweed wrote:
Vir Campestris wrote:
On 12/03/2018 18:10, Tweed wrote:
Cable breaks can be found with
an optical TDR, using pretty much the same principles as the one you
mention but with light pulses.


How does that work?

Obviously you don't get short in a fibre, but do you really get
reflections off the open end the way you do on a wire?

Andy


Explained here
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opti..._reflectometer better
than I can.

If I read that right you get a small amount of backscatter all along the
fibre. So you can then look for where it ends. Neat.

Andy
  #12  
Old March 15th 18, 02:51 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Woody
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 634
Default UK fibre to home to be rolled out by franchise holders


"Tweed" wrote in message
news
R. Mark Clayton wrote:
On Monday, 12 March 2018 15:13:09 UTC, Tweed wrote:
R. Mark Clayton wrote:
On Monday, 12 March 2018 12:34:40 UTC, Tweed wrote:
R. Mark Clayton wrote:
On Sunday, 11 March 2018 22:49:42 UTC, 7 wrote:
UK fibre to home to be rolled out by franchise holders
------------------------------------------------------

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/...bre-on-the-way

Which says: -

"Of course if you take the unpopular but agnostic view that a
100 Mbps
connection if it delivers that speed does not matter whether
[it is] a
hybrid or full fibre solution"

exactly the point no-one will give a **** if they get adequate
speed from
what BT and Virgin offer.


SNIP - wibble

so why does any domestic user need symmetric 1Gbps fibre and
what on
earth would they use it for?


You would be surprised how useful a high speed connection can
be. At work I
have symmetric 1 Gbit/sec to the desktop. My average speed use
of the
connection is tiny, but being able to down/upload files in
seconds rather
than minutes is transformative. At home I could easily see a use
case for
being able to upload files to external backup quickly. But this
is a
byproduct of the real reason for going to full fibre -
reliability. With
xDSL you are plagued by speed loss caused by line length, water
in the
joints, fairy lights, wonky home wiring etc etc. DOCIS delivered
by Virgin
is better in as much as the coax local loop maintains a constant
speed
regardless of length. It suffers from segment over use, ie too
many users
on one shared bit of end point equipment, and this seems to be
highly
variable. My area has always been excellent, but other areas are
seemingly
forever bad. Uplink speeds are poor as well. I get 200 MBit
down, but only
12 up. (And yes I could use a faster up speed). Once full fibre
in the
ground is installed reliability goes up, and speeds can be
increased by
changing end point equipment. The current xDSL roll out has been
good in as
much as it has got the bulk of the UK to useably high speeds in
a shorter
time period than otherwise would have been the case, but it is
ultimately a
technological dead end. Those that cannot see future demand
going beyond
xDSL speeds lack imagination. I still remember people at work
telling me
that this Internet thing was a fad and would never catch on.
This was in an
institution used to dealing with science and technology. I think
ultimately
the lower maintenance costs of a fibre local loop network are
what is going
to drive rollout, with increased speeds being a welcome side
effect.

Of course higher speed is nice, especially for large file
transfer
(however backup is best done at night when you are not using your
system
[and changing the files you are trying to back up]. In practice
Dropbox,
google-drive etc. hide the slower back up from you.

OTOH how often are you going to use it? I just sold a car
capable of
150mph, but don't recall ever driving it above two thirds of that
speed.

Obviously new installs should probably be fibre, but upgrading
all the
existing ones at a cost of billions? Who will pay?


One freezing cold day a sparrow was flying over a farmyard. It
was so
cold that its little wings froze and it fell immobile into the
yard. The
poor little bird was contemplating its demise, when a cow
wandered by an
relieved itself over the sparrow. The warm manure quickly thawed
the
sparrow's frozen wings and it recovered. Relieved at its
deliverance the
bird started singing, but unfortunately this attracted the
attention of
the farmyard cat, which dug the bird out of the manure, killed
and ate it.

There are three morals to this story: -

1. S/he who ****s on you is not necessarily your enemy.
2. S/he who gets you out of the **** is not necessarily your
friend.
and
3. If you are warm an happy in a pile of **** - keep your
bleeding mouth shut!

the third applies to Broadband in the UK.


Bird life apart, you've ignored the points about reliability to
concentrate
on speed. There are two main reliability issues, the inherent ones
with
xDSL being an adaptive technology and it becoming ever more fault
sensitive
as the line gets longer, and the reliability of the installed
plant. The
latter will eventually become life expired and at that point I
foresee more
fibre local loop going in. I may have this wrong, but my
understanding of
FTTC cabinets was that they were eventually going to be jumping
off points
for fibre local loop, the use of the existing copper being an
expedient
interim solution. So some of the work is already done. To take our
1980s
estate as an example. The local loop is in underground ducting
from the
cabinet to the house. It's not unrealistic to imagine that this
might
pulled out one day, to be replaced with fibre. This would not
require major
civil engineering work. What is does require is a major retraining
of the
workforce, and in significant numbers. Mind you, the economic
argument for
all of this might be changed by widespread deployment of radio
local loops.
All those FTTC cabinets could instead support a local low power
radio link.
With all the research going into 5G, short range high capacity
radio links
may be available to all. I expect many a spreadsheet has been
generated
within the major communications companies right now. So, in
summary, copper
will eventually give way to fibre and/or radio. However, I wouldn't
like to
hazard a guess on the timescale.


Well copper takes bending stress better than fibre, (but not the Al
****
BT installed in the 1970's). I also don't know how hard it is to
trace
faults in fibre, with copper you can use TDR to find breaks or
shorts.


Fibre bends surprisingly well, probably better than you might
imagine.
Outdoor grade stuff with "armouring" (it seems to be some sort of
Kevlar
inner mesh and a plastic outer) is virtually indestructible. Took
ages to
get through a length I did want to cut with a hacksaw. At work we've
got
contractors pulling great drums of the stuff through existing ducts
to
improve on site networking. I've deployed it at a field site in
Svalbard
with the drum being attached to a helicopter and the cable pulled
out as
the helicopter flew. (No ducts, just surface laid - you aren't
allowed to
drive on the ground when there is no snow because it kills the few
plants
that are there). Never broken any of it yet. Cable breaks can be
found with
an optical TDR, using pretty much the same principles as the one you
mention but with light pulses.


The only problem with OTDR is that it won't work on short lengths of
fibre. Thus if you need to check such it is necessary to carry a
sealed box containing 1Km of known good fibre to put in series - then
OTDR will work.

Per the comment about VM coax, it does loose signal with distance but
VM then adjust the launch powers to ensure the receiver sees the
incoming signal with a defined window.


--
Woody

harrogate3 at ntlworld dot com


  #13  
Old March 15th 18, 06:06 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Tweed[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default UK fibre to home to be rolled out by franchise holders

Woody wrote:

"Tweed" wrote in message
news
R. Mark Clayton wrote:
On Monday, 12 March 2018 15:13:09 UTC, Tweed wrote:
R. Mark Clayton wrote:
On Monday, 12 March 2018 12:34:40 UTC, Tweed wrote:
R. Mark Clayton wrote:
On Sunday, 11 March 2018 22:49:42 UTC, 7 wrote:
UK fibre to home to be rolled out by franchise holders
------------------------------------------------------

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/...bre-on-the-way

Which says: -

"Of course if you take the unpopular but agnostic view that a
100 Mbps
connection if it delivers that speed does not matter whether
[it is] a
hybrid or full fibre solution"

exactly the point no-one will give a **** if they get adequate
speed from
what BT and Virgin offer.


SNIP - wibble

so why does any domestic user need symmetric 1Gbps fibre and
what on
earth would they use it for?


You would be surprised how useful a high speed connection can
be. At work I
have symmetric 1 Gbit/sec to the desktop. My average speed use
of the
connection is tiny, but being able to down/upload files in
seconds rather
than minutes is transformative. At home I could easily see a use
case for
being able to upload files to external backup quickly. But this
is a
byproduct of the real reason for going to full fibre -
reliability. With
xDSL you are plagued by speed loss caused by line length, water
in the
joints, fairy lights, wonky home wiring etc etc. DOCIS delivered
by Virgin
is better in as much as the coax local loop maintains a constant
speed
regardless of length. It suffers from segment over use, ie too
many users
on one shared bit of end point equipment, and this seems to be
highly
variable. My area has always been excellent, but other areas are
seemingly
forever bad. Uplink speeds are poor as well. I get 200 MBit
down, but only
12 up. (And yes I could use a faster up speed). Once full fibre
in the
ground is installed reliability goes up, and speeds can be
increased by
changing end point equipment. The current xDSL roll out has been
good in as
much as it has got the bulk of the UK to useably high speeds in
a shorter
time period than otherwise would have been the case, but it is
ultimately a
technological dead end. Those that cannot see future demand
going beyond
xDSL speeds lack imagination. I still remember people at work
telling me
that this Internet thing was a fad and would never catch on.
This was in an
institution used to dealing with science and technology. I think
ultimately
the lower maintenance costs of a fibre local loop network are
what is going
to drive rollout, with increased speeds being a welcome side
effect.

Of course higher speed is nice, especially for large file
transfer
(however backup is best done at night when you are not using your
system
[and changing the files you are trying to back up]. In practice
Dropbox,
google-drive etc. hide the slower back up from you.

OTOH how often are you going to use it? I just sold a car
capable of
150mph, but don't recall ever driving it above two thirds of that
speed.

Obviously new installs should probably be fibre, but upgrading
all the
existing ones at a cost of billions? Who will pay?


One freezing cold day a sparrow was flying over a farmyard. It
was so
cold that its little wings froze and it fell immobile into the
yard. The
poor little bird was contemplating its demise, when a cow
wandered by an
relieved itself over the sparrow. The warm manure quickly thawed
the
sparrow's frozen wings and it recovered. Relieved at its
deliverance the
bird started singing, but unfortunately this attracted the
attention of
the farmyard cat, which dug the bird out of the manure, killed
and ate it.

There are three morals to this story: -

1. S/he who ****s on you is not necessarily your enemy.
2. S/he who gets you out of the **** is not necessarily your
friend.
and
3. If you are warm an happy in a pile of **** - keep your
bleeding mouth shut!

the third applies to Broadband in the UK.


Bird life apart, you've ignored the points about reliability to
concentrate
on speed. There are two main reliability issues, the inherent ones
with
xDSL being an adaptive technology and it becoming ever more fault
sensitive
as the line gets longer, and the reliability of the installed
plant. The
latter will eventually become life expired and at that point I
foresee more
fibre local loop going in. I may have this wrong, but my
understanding of
FTTC cabinets was that they were eventually going to be jumping
off points
for fibre local loop, the use of the existing copper being an
expedient
interim solution. So some of the work is already done. To take our
1980s
estate as an example. The local loop is in underground ducting
from the
cabinet to the house. It's not unrealistic to imagine that this
might
pulled out one day, to be replaced with fibre. This would not
require major
civil engineering work. What is does require is a major retraining
of the
workforce, and in significant numbers. Mind you, the economic
argument for
all of this might be changed by widespread deployment of radio
local loops.
All those FTTC cabinets could instead support a local low power
radio link.
With all the research going into 5G, short range high capacity
radio links
may be available to all. I expect many a spreadsheet has been
generated
within the major communications companies right now. So, in
summary, copper
will eventually give way to fibre and/or radio. However, I wouldn't
like to
hazard a guess on the timescale.

Well copper takes bending stress better than fibre, (but not the Al
****
BT installed in the 1970's). I also don't know how hard it is to
trace
faults in fibre, with copper you can use TDR to find breaks or
shorts.


Fibre bends surprisingly well, probably better than you might
imagine.
Outdoor grade stuff with "armouring" (it seems to be some sort of
Kevlar
inner mesh and a plastic outer) is virtually indestructible. Took
ages to
get through a length I did want to cut with a hacksaw. At work we've
got
contractors pulling great drums of the stuff through existing ducts
to
improve on site networking. I've deployed it at a field site in
Svalbard
with the drum being attached to a helicopter and the cable pulled
out as
the helicopter flew. (No ducts, just surface laid - you aren't
allowed to
drive on the ground when there is no snow because it kills the few
plants
that are there). Never broken any of it yet. Cable breaks can be
found with
an optical TDR, using pretty much the same principles as the one you
mention but with light pulses.


The only problem with OTDR is that it won't work on short lengths of
fibre. Thus if you need to check such it is necessary to carry a
sealed box containing 1Km of known good fibre to put in series - then
OTDR will work.

Per the comment about VM coax, it does loose signal with distance but
VM then adjust the launch powers to ensure the receiver sees the
incoming signal with a defined window.


I think you will find that modern ODTRs can measure very short lengths of
fibre. Have a look at the specifications of various devices currently being
offered. There is no need to have a 1 km launch fibre.

I did not say that VM did not suffer from signal loss with respect to
length. What I did say is you got constant speed regardless of length. The
compensation mechanism you allude to is what allows this. Being coax, VM do
not need to worry too much about cross talk with other subscribers' lines,
which is what prevents xDSL from upping the power beyond defined limits.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/0...more_engineers
is interesting.

 




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hyperoptic hits 100,000 fibre to the home subscribers in 2015 7[_2_] uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) 27 April 20th 16 11:41 PM
Open the stock broking Franchise in India Haary uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) 0 January 21st 09 08:37 AM
Fibre to the home (ditching ADSL ) none uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) 3 June 6th 05 09:44 PM
[UK-Bug] News .. BT, BTYahoo, Fibre to the home, Glastonbury & TPONupdate. Andy M Jenkins uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) 0 June 24th 04 07:36 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 2.4.0
Copyright ©2004-2018 BroadbanterBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.