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Some advice please on VOIP



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 3rd 19, 01:29 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 575
Default Some advice please on VOIP

On Saturday, 2 March 2019 16:45:34 UTC, MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 02/03/2019 07:28, Peter wrote:
Hi All,

At work we are getting FTTP.

This means we can get rid of the one unused analog line used for ADSL.
That is great!

However I hear that BT are dropping ISDN too sometime in the next few
years. We have ISDN2 (2 lines on the same number).

We have two lines and 3 phones.

Plus a fax machine which is still occassionally used for sending,
though that could at a push be done by pdf2fax which we also have set


I would advise retaining the analogue line and using it for fax. Faxing
over VoIP has always been somewhat problematic. I have several SIP lines
here terminating on Cisco IP phones, but the line that the VDSL comes in
on (we have FTTC, no sign of FTTP on the horizon) is used purely for
fax. Yes, it does still get used..!

--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]


Indeed - the usual method is to keep one physical line to carry ADSL and use it as the fax line / fall back.
  #12  
Old March 4th 19, 12:31 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Michael Chare[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 55
Default Some advice please on VOIP

On 02/03/2019 07:28, Peter wrote:
Hi All,

At work we are getting FTTP.

This means we can get rid of the one unused analog line used for ADSL.
That is great!

However I hear that BT are dropping ISDN too sometime in the next few
years. We have ISDN2 (2 lines on the same number).

We have two lines and 3 phones.

Plus a fax machine which is still occassionally used for sending,
though that could at a push be done by pdf2fax which we also have set
up.

We would want quality, not the junk which most VOIP seems to be. I
have VOIP on my phone and it works, sort of, mostly, but only on wifi
where the packet latency is short.

I have asked around and one long-time specialist said how much trouble
he has had with GAMA SIP trunks to a Cisco CME system; abandoned after
getting raped for over 1k in fake calls which exploited a security
weakness in Cisco's voicemail system. Then he tried 8x8 VOIP for and
found it unreliable. Then switched to "Skype for Business online"
(SFB) which is an add-on to Office 365. Microsoft renamed their Lync
service to SFB. That has proven to be solid, apparently. A cloud PBX
called "Horizon" has given lots of problems - mostly in upstream
connectivity issues. He reckons whichever system I use needs to have
good connectivity, so I'd recommend a Telco like BT or Microsoft.

Another colleague recommends Gradwell, and tells me to avoid Cisco
handsets, and Asterisk (due to complexity).

What I don't get is why in the 21st century this is so complicated...
Good voice can be sent over 2400 bits/sec, ISDN is very high quality
and that uses 64kbps (with u-law encoding admittedly) and the speeds
available these days are many times higher. Yet, phone VOIP is useless
on 3G, sort of work on multi-megabit speed 4G, and works OK on
wifi/adsl but even then many calls fail. On my phone I use Localphone
VOIP (with Csipsimple on one device and the built-in VOIP profile on
another, both android) and this works on a good day... Nothing I have
looked at gets anywhere remotely near the total 24/7/365 reliability
of ISDN2 which has never once failed since we installed the Siemens
PBX in 1999.

I got some calls from a salesman purporting to be BT saying ISDN will
end next year, but he demanded an appointment and would not send any
information via post or email! I would imagine BT must do VOIP
products, but they aren't going to rob themselves of their juicy line
rentals, surely?

The ISP we have been with for some years is Andrews & Arnold and they
are pretty good, with good support in most cases.

It would be good to save some money too. The BT rental on the ISDN2 is
quite a bit, but from that we will need to subtract the fee for
virtualising out phone number (we pay about 100 quid a year for
another number, with Interfax, for fax2email) and for the VOIP
service. Then of course calls on top because most phone calls are not
VOIP; they come out to a landline.

Thank you in advance for any input

Peter


I would suggest that Voipfone is a supplier you should consider. They
were very good at solving a technical problem I had which is why I
became a customer.

FTTP broadband services are more reliable than metal telephone line
based ones.


--
Michael Chare
  #13  
Old March 4th 19, 10:10 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 29
Default Some advice please on VOIP

Michael Chare wrote:

[snip]

I would suggest that Voipfone is a supplier you should consider. They
were very good at solving a technical problem I had which is why I
became a customer.

FTTP broadband services are more reliable than metal telephone line
based ones.



I recommended Voipfone to several customers who I supported for several
years before I retired. Generally these customers had indifferent ADSL
services often in rural areas, so would lose connectivity from time to
time.

It would have been useful if Voipfone had provided a mechanism for
emailing me whenever a handset became unregistered - I could then have
investigated promptly when a fault occurred.

Happily in most cases I was able to insist that the customer used an ISP
that provided a static IP, and I provided a router which allowed remote
management; so I was able to see any failure of the broadband service as
soon as it happened.

Granted for the OP that if he gets FTTP it ***ought*** to be much more
reliable than copper. But he might still suffer from problems elsewhere
in the system, so monitoring of the connection will still be necessary.


--
Graham J
  #14  
Old March 5th 19, 03:04 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Peter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default Some advice please on VOIP

The author has marked this message not to be archived. This post will be deleted on March 12, 2019.


Michael Chare wrote

I would suggest that Voipfone is a supplier you should consider. They
were very good at solving a technical problem I had which is why I
became a customer.


Thanks for the tip - will contact them.

FTTP broadband services are more reliable than metal telephone line
based ones.


I would hope so!

BTW I emailed both Gradwell and A&P (my ISP) and neither has responded
with anything.
  #15  
Old March 5th 19, 04:19 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Theo[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 74
Default Some advice please on VOIP

Peter wrote:
We would want quality, not the junk which most VOIP seems to be. I
have VOIP on my phone and it works, sort of, mostly, but only on wifi
where the packet latency is short.


VOIP depends on network quality. If you're running it over 3G, that's
a pretty nasty network performance in terms of bandwidth, latency and
jitter, and I'm not surprised it doesn't work reliably.

So take some simple steps:

- have a solid low-latency backhaul. FTTP should be good for that.
- ethernet connections locally, not wifi
- guaranteed bandwidth. Set up QoS on your router so a big download doesn't
kill your VOIP, or for higher volumes have a dedicated connection.
- no NAT: a dedicated IP for your VOIP endpoint avoids config problems
(if your ISP won't give you another IPv4 address an IPv6 IP should be fine,
if your kit, ISP and VOIP provider support that)
- hard VOIP phones (either ethernet or DECT) are better than ATAs which are
better than soft-phone apps.

Avoid anything in the consumer space - you may have heard of Skype or
Facetime or Hangouts or whatever, but these are not business-quality
communication platforms. SIP is the standard - the config can be
complicated, but it's the common interconnect used by lots of businesses.

I'm a bit unsure where you are in this space: are we talking one voice line,
like you might have at home, a small PABX, or a heavier user (20+ lines)?

Folks like Voipfone or A&A can handle the 'small' end of the spectrum, but
if you're a more substantial user you might need a 'system' rather than just
paying for a number and a SIP account.

What I don't get is why in the 21st century this is so complicated...
Good voice can be sent over 2400 bits/sec, ISDN is very high quality
and that uses 64kbps (with u-law encoding admittedly) and the speeds
available these days are many times higher.


SIP isn't necessarily complicated, but the many things you can do with it
introduce some complexity. Yes you can run it over NAT or wifi or 3G, but
you have to tweak a lot - solution, don't run it over NAT or wifi or 3G.

The ISP we have been with for some years is Andrews & Arnold and they
are pretty good, with good support in most cases.

It would be good to save some money too. The BT rental on the ISDN2 is
quite a bit, but from that we will need to subtract the fee for
virtualising out phone number (we pay about 100 quid a year for
another number, with Interfax, for fax2email) and for the VOIP
service. Then of course calls on top because most phone calls are not
VOIP; they come out to a landline.


If it's a single line, go he
https://aa.net.uk/telecoms.html

pick a number, pay your 1.20 a month, you'll get the VOIP settings.
Configure your VOIP hardware with the settings, you have a working line.
It's not that complicated. (A&A will sell you suitable hardware if needed,
which is a good route if you're inexperienced)

When operational and you're satisfied with the service, if you want to port
in your existing number talk to A&A - there's a dance with Openreach that
needs to be choreographed with regards to ceasing the analogue line and not
cancelling your broadband as well.

Theo
  #16  
Old March 6th 19, 06:47 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 575
Default Some advice please on VOIP

On Tuesday, 5 March 2019 15:19:21 UTC, Theo wrote:
Peter wrote:
We would want quality, not the junk which most VOIP seems to be. I
have VOIP on my phone and it works, sort of, mostly, but only on wifi
where the packet latency is short.


VOIP depends on network quality. If you're running it over 3G, that's
a pretty nasty network performance in terms of bandwidth, latency and
jitter, and I'm not surprised it doesn't work reliably.

So take some simple steps:

- have a solid low-latency backhaul. FTTP should be good for that.
- ethernet connections locally, not wifi
- guaranteed bandwidth. Set up QoS on your router so a big download doesn't
kill your VOIP, or for higher volumes have a dedicated connection.
- no NAT: a dedicated IP for your VOIP endpoint avoids config problems
(if your ISP won't give you another IPv4 address an IPv6 IP should be fine,
if your kit, ISP and VOIP provider support that)
- hard VOIP phones (either ethernet or DECT) are better than ATAs which are
better than soft-phone apps.

Avoid anything in the consumer space - you may have heard of Skype or
Facetime or Hangouts or whatever, but these are not business-quality
communication platforms. SIP is the standard - the config can be
complicated, but it's the common interconnect used by lots of businesses.

I'm a bit unsure where you are in this space: are we talking one voice line,
like you might have at home, a small PABX, or a heavier user (20+ lines)?

Folks like Voipfone or A&A can handle the 'small' end of the spectrum, but
if you're a more substantial user you might need a 'system' rather than just
paying for a number and a SIP account.

What I don't get is why in the 21st century this is so complicated...
Good voice can be sent over 2400 bits/sec, ISDN is very high quality
and that uses 64kbps (with u-law encoding admittedly) and the speeds
available these days are many times higher.


SIP isn't necessarily complicated, but the many things you can do with it
introduce some complexity. Yes you can run it over NAT or wifi or 3G, but
you have to tweak a lot - solution, don't run it over NAT or wifi or 3G.

The ISP we have been with for some years is Andrews & Arnold and they
are pretty good, with good support in most cases.

It would be good to save some money too. The BT rental on the ISDN2 is
quite a bit, but from that we will need to subtract the fee for
virtualising out phone number (we pay about 100 quid a year for
another number, with Interfax, for fax2email) and for the VOIP
service. Then of course calls on top because most phone calls are not
VOIP; they come out to a landline.


If it's a single line, go he
https://aa.net.uk/telecoms.html

pick a number, pay your 1.20 a month, you'll get the VOIP settings.
Configure your VOIP hardware with the settings, you have a working line.
It's not that complicated. (A&A will sell you suitable hardware if needed,
which is a good route if you're inexperienced)

When operational and you're satisfied with the service, if you want to port
in your existing number talk to A&A - there's a dance with Openreach that
needs to be choreographed with regards to ceasing the analogue line and not
cancelling your broadband as well.

Theo


A lot of assertions that don't really reflect experience here.

VOIP works well over Wi-Fi, often giving better voice quality than PSTN or even ISDN. It also normally works fine over 3G, although with a poor [low bandwidth] connection or congested cell there can be minor issues.

It also works fine over 4G, or even both 4G and Wi-fi. I quite often make Voip calls from the bus so I have phone - Wi-Fi - bus router - 4G - Mobile network - no problem and there as usually other people on the bus surfing, checking email etc. on their smart phones.
  #17  
Old March 6th 19, 07:29 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Woody
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 708
Default Some advice please on VOIP

On Wed 06/03/2019 17:47, R. Mark Clayton wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 March 2019 15:19:21 UTC, Theo wrote:
Peter wrote:
We would want quality, not the junk which most VOIP seems to be. I
have VOIP on my phone and it works, sort of, mostly, but only on wifi
where the packet latency is short.


VOIP depends on network quality. If you're running it over 3G, that's
a pretty nasty network performance in terms of bandwidth, latency and
jitter, and I'm not surprised it doesn't work reliably.

So take some simple steps:

- have a solid low-latency backhaul. FTTP should be good for that.
- ethernet connections locally, not wifi
- guaranteed bandwidth. Set up QoS on your router so a big download doesn't
kill your VOIP, or for higher volumes have a dedicated connection.
- no NAT: a dedicated IP for your VOIP endpoint avoids config problems
(if your ISP won't give you another IPv4 address an IPv6 IP should be fine,
if your kit, ISP and VOIP provider support that)
- hard VOIP phones (either ethernet or DECT) are better than ATAs which are
better than soft-phone apps.

Avoid anything in the consumer space - you may have heard of Skype or
Facetime or Hangouts or whatever, but these are not business-quality
communication platforms. SIP is the standard - the config can be
complicated, but it's the common interconnect used by lots of businesses.

I'm a bit unsure where you are in this space: are we talking one voice line,
like you might have at home, a small PABX, or a heavier user (20+ lines)?

Folks like Voipfone or A&A can handle the 'small' end of the spectrum, but
if you're a more substantial user you might need a 'system' rather than just
paying for a number and a SIP account.

What I don't get is why in the 21st century this is so complicated...
Good voice can be sent over 2400 bits/sec, ISDN is very high quality
and that uses 64kbps (with u-law encoding admittedly) and the speeds
available these days are many times higher.


SIP isn't necessarily complicated, but the many things you can do with it
introduce some complexity. Yes you can run it over NAT or wifi or 3G, but
you have to tweak a lot - solution, don't run it over NAT or wifi or 3G.

The ISP we have been with for some years is Andrews & Arnold and they
are pretty good, with good support in most cases.

It would be good to save some money too. The BT rental on the ISDN2 is
quite a bit, but from that we will need to subtract the fee for
virtualising out phone number (we pay about 100 quid a year for
another number, with Interfax, for fax2email) and for the VOIP
service. Then of course calls on top because most phone calls are not
VOIP; they come out to a landline.


If it's a single line, go he
https://aa.net.uk/telecoms.html

pick a number, pay your 1.20 a month, you'll get the VOIP settings.
Configure your VOIP hardware with the settings, you have a working line.
It's not that complicated. (A&A will sell you suitable hardware if needed,
which is a good route if you're inexperienced)

When operational and you're satisfied with the service, if you want to port
in your existing number talk to A&A - there's a dance with Openreach that
needs to be choreographed with regards to ceasing the analogue line and not
cancelling your broadband as well.

Theo


A lot of assertions that don't really reflect experience here.

VOIP works well over Wi-Fi, often giving better voice quality than PSTN or even ISDN. It also normally works fine over 3G, although with a poor [low bandwidth] connection or congested cell there can be minor issues.

It also works fine over 4G, or even both 4G and Wi-fi. I quite often make Voip calls from the bus so I have phone - Wi-Fi - bus router - 4G - Mobile network - no problem and there as usually other people on the bus surfing, checking email etc. on their smart phones.

Got to agree with all of that Mark.

I use (used) it most when in Europe before the latest roaming rules came
in. It was reliable and had good quality - certainly as good if not
better than What'sApp is today except that there could be some audio
delay which WA does not seem to suffer. We often talk to b-in-l in New
Zealand and there is no discernable delay.

--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com
  #18  
Old March 6th 19, 08:21 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 575
Default Some advice please on VOIP

On Wednesday, 6 March 2019 18:29:45 UTC, Woody wrote:
On Wed 06/03/2019 17:47, R. Mark Clayton wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 March 2019 15:19:21 UTC, Theo wrote:
Peter wrote:
We would want quality, not the junk which most VOIP seems to be. I
have VOIP on my phone and it works, sort of, mostly, but only on wifi
where the packet latency is short.

VOIP depends on network quality. If you're running it over 3G, that's
a pretty nasty network performance in terms of bandwidth, latency and
jitter, and I'm not surprised it doesn't work reliably.

So take some simple steps:

- have a solid low-latency backhaul. FTTP should be good for that.
- ethernet connections locally, not wifi
- guaranteed bandwidth. Set up QoS on your router so a big download doesn't
kill your VOIP, or for higher volumes have a dedicated connection.
- no NAT: a dedicated IP for your VOIP endpoint avoids config problems
(if your ISP won't give you another IPv4 address an IPv6 IP should be fine,
if your kit, ISP and VOIP provider support that)
- hard VOIP phones (either ethernet or DECT) are better than ATAs which are
better than soft-phone apps.

Avoid anything in the consumer space - you may have heard of Skype or
Facetime or Hangouts or whatever, but these are not business-quality
communication platforms. SIP is the standard - the config can be
complicated, but it's the common interconnect used by lots of businesses.

I'm a bit unsure where you are in this space: are we talking one voice line,
like you might have at home, a small PABX, or a heavier user (20+ lines)?

Folks like Voipfone or A&A can handle the 'small' end of the spectrum, but
if you're a more substantial user you might need a 'system' rather than just
paying for a number and a SIP account.

What I don't get is why in the 21st century this is so complicated...
Good voice can be sent over 2400 bits/sec, ISDN is very high quality
and that uses 64kbps (with u-law encoding admittedly) and the speeds
available these days are many times higher.

SIP isn't necessarily complicated, but the many things you can do with it
introduce some complexity. Yes you can run it over NAT or wifi or 3G, but
you have to tweak a lot - solution, don't run it over NAT or wifi or 3G.

The ISP we have been with for some years is Andrews & Arnold and they
are pretty good, with good support in most cases.

It would be good to save some money too. The BT rental on the ISDN2 is
quite a bit, but from that we will need to subtract the fee for
virtualising out phone number (we pay about 100 quid a year for
another number, with Interfax, for fax2email) and for the VOIP
service. Then of course calls on top because most phone calls are not
VOIP; they come out to a landline.

If it's a single line, go he
https://aa.net.uk/telecoms.html

pick a number, pay your 1.20 a month, you'll get the VOIP settings.
Configure your VOIP hardware with the settings, you have a working line.
It's not that complicated. (A&A will sell you suitable hardware if needed,
which is a good route if you're inexperienced)

When operational and you're satisfied with the service, if you want to port
in your existing number talk to A&A - there's a dance with Openreach that
needs to be choreographed with regards to ceasing the analogue line and not
cancelling your broadband as well.

Theo


A lot of assertions that don't really reflect experience here.

VOIP works well over Wi-Fi, often giving better voice quality than PSTN or even ISDN. It also normally works fine over 3G, although with a poor [low bandwidth] connection or congested cell there can be minor issues.

It also works fine over 4G, or even both 4G and Wi-fi. I quite often make Voip calls from the bus so I have phone - Wi-Fi - bus router - 4G - Mobile network - no problem and there as usually other people on the bus surfing, checking email etc. on their smart phones.

Got to agree with all of that Mark.

I use (used) it most when in Europe before the latest roaming rules came
in. It was reliable and had good quality - certainly as good if not
better than What'sApp is today except that there could be some audio
delay which WA does not seem to suffer. We often talk to b-in-l in New
Zealand and there is no discernable delay.

--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com


Indeed it also works well from abroad - we have packed off phones to Ireland, The Netherlands and Germany and people make calls from there as though they are sat in the office.

I received my first Voip call over 3G accidentally around ten years ago [on a Nokia N79, also when sat on a bus].
  #19  
Old March 6th 19, 11:20 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Peter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default Some advice please on VOIP

The author has marked this message not to be archived. This post will be deleted on March 13, 2019.

Many thanks to all of you for all this great info.

I got responses from Voiphone and A&A. I will probably go with A&A
since they are our ISP.

We have just one ISDN2 PBX with 3 phones on it, so a small office.

The plan would be to get FTTP running before cancelling the analog
line. The router config will apparently not change (same login
credentials as ADSL) and all we will need to do is move the ethernet
cable which goes to the ADSL modem, to the FTTP wall box (which has a
PPPOE port). And only later move the voice comms to VOIP.

The costs are amazingly low, even with porting our existing number
over. I wonder what will happen to BT in the long run? They make a
packet on renting out copper wire...



Theo wrote

Peter wrote:
We would want quality, not the junk which most VOIP seems to be. I
have VOIP on my phone and it works, sort of, mostly, but only on wifi
where the packet latency is short.


VOIP depends on network quality. If you're running it over 3G, that's
a pretty nasty network performance in terms of bandwidth, latency and
jitter, and I'm not surprised it doesn't work reliably.

So take some simple steps:

- have a solid low-latency backhaul. FTTP should be good for that.
- ethernet connections locally, not wifi
- guaranteed bandwidth. Set up QoS on your router so a big download doesn't
kill your VOIP, or for higher volumes have a dedicated connection.
- no NAT: a dedicated IP for your VOIP endpoint avoids config problems
(if your ISP won't give you another IPv4 address an IPv6 IP should be fine,
if your kit, ISP and VOIP provider support that)
- hard VOIP phones (either ethernet or DECT) are better than ATAs which are
better than soft-phone apps.

Avoid anything in the consumer space - you may have heard of Skype or
Facetime or Hangouts or whatever, but these are not business-quality
communication platforms. SIP is the standard - the config can be
complicated, but it's the common interconnect used by lots of businesses.

I'm a bit unsure where you are in this space: are we talking one voice line,
like you might have at home, a small PABX, or a heavier user (20+ lines)?

Folks like Voipfone or A&A can handle the 'small' end of the spectrum, but
if you're a more substantial user you might need a 'system' rather than just
paying for a number and a SIP account.

What I don't get is why in the 21st century this is so complicated...
Good voice can be sent over 2400 bits/sec, ISDN is very high quality
and that uses 64kbps (with u-law encoding admittedly) and the speeds
available these days are many times higher.


SIP isn't necessarily complicated, but the many things you can do with it
introduce some complexity. Yes you can run it over NAT or wifi or 3G, but
you have to tweak a lot - solution, don't run it over NAT or wifi or 3G.

The ISP we have been with for some years is Andrews & Arnold and they
are pretty good, with good support in most cases.

It would be good to save some money too. The BT rental on the ISDN2 is
quite a bit, but from that we will need to subtract the fee for
virtualising out phone number (we pay about 100 quid a year for
another number, with Interfax, for fax2email) and for the VOIP
service. Then of course calls on top because most phone calls are not
VOIP; they come out to a landline.


If it's a single line, go he
https://aa.net.uk/telecoms.html

pick a number, pay your 1.20 a month, you'll get the VOIP settings.
Configure your VOIP hardware with the settings, you have a working line.
It's not that complicated. (A&A will sell you suitable hardware if needed,
which is a good route if you're inexperienced)

When operational and you're satisfied with the service, if you want to port
in your existing number talk to A&A - there's a dance with Openreach that
needs to be choreographed with regards to ceasing the analogue line and not
cancelling your broadband as well.

Theo

 




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