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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

Interesting Conundrum



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 17th 19, 02:45 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 225
Default Interesting Conundrum

On 16/11/2019 14:53, Java Jive wrote:
If, which I doubt, any of you have followed the shenanigens of our
broadband here in Shinness, and our various attempts to improve it, you
may be aware that we now have a shiny new green FTTC cabinet at the
junction of the A838 and Tirryside at 256544,910287:
***

As a result, two local households within a few hundred yards have
reported that their ADSL broadband has increased in speed and
reliability so much that feel no need to actually ask for FTTC!* That's
a little surprising, but perhaps while they were laying the fibre for
the cabinet they also laid new copper back to the exchange, so removed a
lot of the faults caused by lightning making the wires brittle, etc.
Even so, and even though they are among the closest houses to the
exchange, they are still about 5.7km from it, so, according to this
graph, I wouldn't expect them to be getting more than about 2Mbps:

https://www.increasebroadbandspeed.c...ersus-distance


That graph is a bit pessimistic compared to reality. I get about 5Mpbs
when the wires are clean and dry at about 4.5km and 48dB line
attenuation. If the copper were in better condition I might even be able
to do a bit better. ADSL service improves markedly when they enable all
the features of ADSL 2+. More noticeable if all you had was 2Mbps.


Perhaps they are happy with a reliable 2Mbps (I was walking by at the
time, and didn't think to ask them their speeds, and I don't have emails
for either household, so would have to ring up or bang on doors to get
better details, which I may well yet do), or, just possibly, have BT
switched everyone, or at least all *their* customers, on that cabinet
over to FTTC silently without extra charge?* This sounds unlikely, but,
certainly they've switched all but about six local lines to go via that
cabinet, because I've checked every local number that I've been given as
contact details, and read on, there is even stranger news!

Next, yesterday, a household that is 8.24km from the exchange and 2.84km
away from the cabinet* -* comfortably more than the usually recommended
2km cut-off distance of viability of FTTC over ADSL* -* called me in for
a chat as I walking past, so I had to stand on the front door mat in my
dirty boots, and couldn't see any of the emails they had exchanged, and
of course their verbal description was vague and non-technical, but I
gathered they'd recently rung up BT to complain, threatening to take
their custom elsewhere.* BT offered them a 'booster' service, came to
the premises and installed something, I think at the top of their pole,
and now they're getting 20Mbps!


I think that is the deal where they give you a router that uses their EE
mobile service on 3/4G. A neighbour is on the same deal.

What does the external antenna look like? Is there one?

Er, how?* According to this, they shouldn't be getting more than about
10Mbps at very best, and the intervening cabling is so bad that it
featured in more than one of the negligence pictures that I posted a day
or so ago in R Mark Clayton's thread:

https://www.increasebroadbandspeed.c...ainst-distance


Could BT have improved the FTTC service to work so dramatically well at
that distance over multiply f*ked-up cabling, or, as the household are
getting exactly the same as me on a 4G service, have BT simply installed
some sort of 4G receiver at the top of their pole, without explaining
that they are no longer using a landline?

A related factor may be the opening of Highland Wireless' new system in
the area, I am beginning to suspect from the above that BT are trying to
undermine their business venture, and the above being part of it?

Any thoughts?


Almost certainly they will try a lot harder if a microwave based local
initiative is starting to make headway and grab the higher value
business customers off them. That happened here but they were too late
as most of the farms had already jumped ship before the FTTC upgrade.
(not that it helps me I am too far from any cabinet)

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #12  
Old November 17th 19, 02:56 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Java Jive
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 564
Default Interesting Conundrum

On 16/11/2019 19:22, Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd wrote:
*Subject:* Interesting Conundrum
*From:* Java Jive
*Date:* Sat, 16 Nov 2019 14:53:18 +0000

If, which I doubt, any of you have followed the shenanigens of
our broadband here in Shinness, and our various attempts to
improve it, you may be aware that we now have a shiny new green
FTTC cabinet
As a result, two local households within a few hundred yards have
reported that their ADSL broadband has increased in speed and
reliability so much that feel no need to actually ask for FTTC!


Technically, it's possible for the FTTC cabinet to contain an MSAN
(multi-service access node) which supports voice, ADSL and VDSL, this is how
some suppliers provide ADSL and voice from the exchange.
Since BT already had two of these services from the exchange, most cabinets
only used VDSL.

In which case ADSL speed would have increased since the copper between the
exchange and cabinet is now obsolete. This is the Openreach plan for the next
few years when the existing telephone exchanges are turned off, for those
without FTTP.

Maybe they are testing it early?


Thanks, Angus, that was exactly the sort of inside information that I
was hoping to find, to give me a lead to investigate, though obviously I
need better information before anything else - The first thing is to
ask the households concerned to do a speed check, and find out which are
their ISPs, etc.

FTTC prices are now essentially the same as ADSL for lowest speed, although
Openreach is planning an FTTP product with 500K/500K for voice only use where
there is no copper and no need for broadband.


Yes, I've been telling local people that if they can't get a good FTTC
deal from their current ISP then they should shop around.
  #13  
Old November 17th 19, 03:01 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Java Jive
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 564
Default Interesting Conundrum

On 17/11/2019 13:45, Martin Brown wrote:

On 16/11/2019 14:53, Java Jive wrote:

If, which I doubt, any of you have followed the shenanigens of our
broadband here in Shinness, and our various attempts to improve it,
you may be aware that we now have a shiny new green FTTC cabinet at
the junction of the A838 and Tirryside at 256544,910287:
****

As a result, two local households within a few hundred yards have
reported that their ADSL broadband has increased in speed and
reliability so much that feel no need to actually ask for FTTC!
That's a little surprising, but perhaps while they were laying the
fibre for the cabinet they also laid new copper back to the exchange,
so removed a lot of the faults caused by lightning making the wires
brittle, etc. Even so, and even though they are among the closest
houses to the exchange, they are still about 5.7km from it, so,
according to this graph, I wouldn't expect them to be getting more
than about 2Mbps:

https://www.increasebroadbandspeed.c...ersus-distance


That graph is a bit pessimistic compared to reality. I get about 5Mpbs
when the wires are clean and dry at about 4.5km and 48dB line
attenuation. If the copper were in better condition I might even be able
to do a bit better. ADSL service improves markedly when they enable all
the features of ADSL 2+. More noticeable if all you had was 2Mbps.


Noted.

Perhaps they are happy with a reliable 2Mbps (I was walking by at the
time, and didn't think to ask them their speeds, and I don't have
emails for either household, so would have to ring up or bang on doors
to get better details, which I may well yet do), or, just possibly,
have BT switched everyone, or at least all *their* customers, on that
cabinet over to FTTC silently without extra charge?* This sounds
unlikely, but, certainly they've switched all but about six local
lines to go via that cabinet, because I've checked every local number
that I've been given as contact details, and read on, there is even
stranger news!

Next, yesterday, a household that is 8.24km from the exchange and
2.84km away from the cabinet* -* comfortably more than the usually
recommended 2km cut-off distance of viability of FTTC over ADSL* -
called me in for a chat as I walking past, so I had to stand on the
front door mat in my dirty boots, and couldn't see any of the emails
they had exchanged, and of course their verbal description was vague
and non-technical, but I gathered they'd recently rung up BT to
complain, threatening to take their custom elsewhere.* BT offered them
a 'booster' service, came to the premises and installed something, I
think at the top of their pole, and now they're getting 20Mbps!


I think that is the deal where they give you a router that uses their EE
mobile service on 3/4G. A neighbour is on the same deal.

What does the external antenna look like? Is there one?


It's a fine day, so I'll take the camera out and try and get a picture,
though I haven't much zoom on the lens.

Er, how?* According to this, they shouldn't be getting more than about
10Mbps at very best, and the intervening cabling is so bad that it
featured in more than one of the negligence pictures that I posted a
day or so ago in R Mark Clayton's thread:

https://www.increasebroadbandspeed.c...ainst-distance

Could BT have improved the FTTC service to work so dramatically well
at that distance over multiply f*ked-up cabling, or, as the household
are getting exactly the same as me on a 4G service, have BT simply
installed some sort of 4G receiver at the top of their pole, without
explaining that they are no longer using a landline?

A related factor may be the opening of Highland Wireless' new system
in the area, I am beginning to suspect from the above that BT are
trying to undermine their business venture, and the above being part
of it?

Any thoughts?


Almost certainly they will try a lot harder if a microwave based local
initiative is starting to make headway and grab the higher value
business customers off them. That happened here but they were too late
as most of the farms had already jumped ship before the FTTC upgrade.
(not that it helps me I am too far from any cabinet)


Yes, in the past I've encountered enough of BT's unethical practices to
last me more than a lifetime, which is why I'm getting suspicious, but
to start with clearly I need better information.
  #14  
Old November 17th 19, 04:14 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 225
Default Interesting Conundrum

On 17/11/2019 14:01, Java Jive wrote:
On 17/11/2019 13:45, Martin Brown wrote:

On 16/11/2019 14:53, Java Jive wrote:


complain, threatening to take their custom elsewhere.* BT offered
them a 'booster' service, came to the premises and installed
something, I think at the top of their pole, and now they're getting
20Mbps!


I think that is the deal where they give you a router that uses their
EE mobile service on 3/4G. A neighbour is on the same deal.

What does the external antenna look like? Is there one?


It's a fine day, so I'll take the camera out and try and get a picture,
though I haven't much zoom on the lens.

The options are something like a high gain yagi antenna which is what I
use for my 4G connection when I need one. Roughly 1m long and 6cm wide.
A medium gain external flat panel about 20cm on each side and 6cm thick
which I also have. You can try your luck with this approach by enabling
the hot spot on your phone and if you have some signal then a Mifi
pebble and a relatively cheap Chinese antenna will get you 20+Mbps.
(data charges can sting a bit if you do a lot of streaming)

Or if it is microwave a round parabolic dish about 30cm and 10cm deep
high up and pointing at another along a direct line of sight. The dish
has a skin on so looks more like a white drum than anything else.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #15  
Old November 17th 19, 05:33 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 225
Default Interesting Conundrum

On 17/11/2019 13:56, Java Jive wrote:
On 16/11/2019 19:22, Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd wrote:
*Subject:* Interesting Conundrum
*From:* Java Jive
*Date:* Sat, 16 Nov 2019 14:53:18 +0000

If, which I doubt, any of you have followed the shenanigens of
our broadband here in Shinness, and our various attempts to
improve it, you may be aware that we now have a shiny new green
FTTC cabinet
As a result, two local households within a few hundred yards have
reported that their ADSL broadband has increased in speed and
reliability so much that feel no need to actually ask for FTTC!


Technically, it's possible for the FTTC cabinet to contain an MSAN
(multi-service access node) which supports voice, ADSL and VDSL, this
is how
some suppliers provide ADSL and voice from the exchange.
Since BT already had two of these services from the exchange, most
cabinets
only used VDSL.

In which case ADSL speed would have increased since the copper between
the
exchange and cabinet is now obsolete.* This is the Openreach plan for
the next
few years when the existing telephone exchanges are turned off, for those
without FTTP.

Maybe they are testing it early?


Thanks, Angus, that was exactly the sort of inside information that I
was hoping to find, to give me a lead to investigate, though obviously I
need better information before anything else* -* The first thing is to
ask the households concerned to do a speed check, and find out which are
their ISPs, etc.


Getting them to look at line attenuation and link speed might be
informative (especially if they have historic values as well).

FTTC prices are now essentially the same as ADSL for lowest speed,
although
Openreach is planning an FTTP product with 500K/500K for voice only
use where
there is no copper and no need for broadband.


Yes, I've been telling local people that if they can't get a good FTTC
deal from their current ISP then they should shop around.


You may be able to glean a fair amount of background info by putting
their phone number(s) into the usual sources like:

http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/

It even shows you the maximum observed sync rate these days on suitably
enabled exchanges (including on my rural one since ADSL 2+ rolled out).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #16  
Old November 17th 19, 10:22 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Vir Campestris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 266
Default Interesting Conundrum

On 17/11/2019 03:09, Graham. wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2019 21:25:32 +0000, Vir Campestris wrote:

On 16/11/2019 19:22, Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd wrote:
FTTC prices are now essentially the same as ADSL for lowest speed,
although Openreach is planning an FTTP product with 500K/500K for voice
only use where there is no copper and no need for broadband.

We've got FTTP, and BT are unable to migrate incoming calls to the POTS
port on the fibre modem.

We effectively have 2 outgoing lines - if I had another phone I'd be
tempted to see if the modem line could call the POTS one.


Get a VoIP adapter and migrate the phone number to an ITSP.


As well as that Andy, even if the VoIP port on your router worked,
AIUI BT charge the same rates for outgoing calls as they would for a
genuine POTS line. If you roll your own VoIP as suggested, you can pay
considerably less for calls, in my case 0.3p/min to call a UK mobile,
and no "connection charge" added to the first min.

With our current usage I pay 10 to my voip provider about every 3
months, my landline provider offers all I can eat for an additional 8
per month which is nearly 150% more


It's on my list of jobs. Along with dumping BT as the ISP - we only went
with them because I correctly predicted they'd screw up the install.

We make very few phone calls anyway.

Andy
  #17  
Old November 18th 19, 10:25 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 225
Default Interesting Conundrum

On 17/11/2019 11:54, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2019 15:38:14 +0000, Roger
wrote:

Does an ADSL modem work with FTTC? I thought one needed a VDSL
modem. Some boxes do both, of course.


I wouldn't recommend buying one that didn't do both, even if you're
only using ADSL for now, in case you have the opportunity to upgrade
to VDSL later.


When you upgrade the ISP will send you its preferred VDSL router if you
don't already have one (and even if you do). They prefer to fault find
with their own preferred kit on the line so the droids scripts work.

A common arrangement is now a modem, router and wireless access point
all in the same box (a "hub"), so if you needed to buy a new one you'd
be buying all of that all over again even though it was only the modem
part that was different. Buy the right thing and only buy it once.


Most ISPs have been supplying free combined V/ADSL capable
modem/router/wifi/ethernet kit for more than 5 years now.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #18  
Old November 18th 19, 12:48 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Roderick Stewart
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 585
Default Interesting Conundrum

On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 09:25:04 +0000, Martin Brown
wrote:

Does an ADSL modem work with FTTC? I thought one needed a VDSL
modem. Some boxes do both, of course.


I wouldn't recommend buying one that didn't do both, even if you're
only using ADSL for now, in case you have the opportunity to upgrade
to VDSL later.


When you upgrade the ISP will send you its preferred VDSL router if you
don't already have one (and even if you do). They prefer to fault find
with their own preferred kit on the line so the droids scripts work.

A common arrangement is now a modem, router and wireless access point
all in the same box (a "hub"), so if you needed to buy a new one you'd
be buying all of that all over again even though it was only the modem
part that was different. Buy the right thing and only buy it once.


Most ISPs have been supplying free combined V/ADSL capable
modem/router/wifi/ethernet kit for more than 5 years now.


When I got ADSL upgraded to VDSL (about 10 years ago I think) the
installation guy brought a modem, the Huawei HG612, which he wanted to
screw to the wall because that was "standard procedure", though I
managed to persuade him not to. My ISP had explained that I would need
a router in addition, so not knowing much at the time I just bought
what they supplied, in order to be sure that everything would work. I
then had two small boxes, two power supplies, a tangle of cables, and
the wireless performance wasn't very good.

Later, having learned more, I realised I only needed one box to
replace all of this, and was not tied to what the ISP provided, so I
bought my own. I now have one neat box, one power supply, fewer
cables, and the wireless performance is considerably better. The
single modem/router/wireless box is hardly even warm to the touch and
has about half the power consumption of the two box arrangement it
replaces, which seems an important important property for something
that has to be powered 24/7.

I set all this up myself by reading instructions and using my brain
and have never needed anybody with a "droid script" to help me. The
only internet fault I've ever had turned out to be a physical line
fault outside my house and nothing to do with any of my equipment.

The HG612, the not-very-good router, and their two power supplies are
on a shelf in my junk room, gathering dust. There are a lot of HG612
modems on Ebay. I wonder why?

Rod.
  #19  
Old November 19th 19, 10:55 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 225
Default Interesting Conundrum

On 18/11/2019 11:48, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 09:25:04 +0000, Martin Brown
wrote:

Does an ADSL modem work with FTTC? I thought one needed a VDSL
modem. Some boxes do both, of course.

I wouldn't recommend buying one that didn't do both, even if you're
only using ADSL for now, in case you have the opportunity to upgrade
to VDSL later.


When you upgrade the ISP will send you its preferred VDSL router if you
don't already have one (and even if you do). They prefer to fault find
with their own preferred kit on the line so the droids scripts work.

A common arrangement is now a modem, router and wireless access point
all in the same box (a "hub"), so if you needed to buy a new one you'd
be buying all of that all over again even though it was only the modem
part that was different. Buy the right thing and only buy it once.


Most ISPs have been supplying free combined V/ADSL capable
modem/router/wifi/ethernet kit for more than 5 years now.


When I got ADSL upgraded to VDSL (about 10 years ago I think) the
installation guy brought a modem, the Huawei HG612, which he wanted to
screw to the wall because that was "standard procedure", though I
managed to persuade him not to. My ISP had explained that I would need
a router in addition, so not knowing much at the time I just bought
what they supplied, in order to be sure that everything would work. I
then had two small boxes, two power supplies, a tangle of cables, and
the wireless performance wasn't very good.


If you upgraded very early on then yes you might have got a modem. I
still have an original prehistoric ADSL modem somewhere that looked a
bit like a horseshoe crab.

Later, having learned more, I realised I only needed one box to
replace all of this, and was not tied to what the ISP provided, so I
bought my own. I now have one neat box, one power supply, fewer
cables, and the wireless performance is considerably better. The
single modem/router/wireless box is hardly even warm to the touch and
has about half the power consumption of the two box arrangement it
replaces, which seems an important important property for something
that has to be powered 24/7.


I wish they would power down whan there is no local internet traffic and
wake on lan activity but apart from that they are fine.

I set all this up myself by reading instructions and using my brain
and have never needed anybody with a "droid script" to help me. The
only internet fault I've ever had turned out to be a physical line
fault outside my house and nothing to do with any of my equipment.


The droid script is for when there is a line fault that doesn't
immediately show up on a TDR line continuity test. They will ask you to
put their kit on the line and follow the test script. This was exactly
how I got my free V/ADSL router since they had never heard of the unit
that they (then as Wanadoo) had supplied me with a decade or so earlier.

The HG612, the not-very-good router, and their two power supplies are
on a shelf in my junk room, gathering dust. There are a lot of HG612
modems on Ebay. I wonder why?

Rod.


Because they are old junk. But still potentially useful as a backup or
swap test when your router of choice has failed. The only router I have
ever had fail was a Linksys where the 10/100MB ethernet lines stopped
supporting 100M after a few years (known chipset fault).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #20  
Old November 19th 19, 02:04 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Roderick Stewart
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 585
Default Interesting Conundrum

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:55:39 +0000, Martin Brown
wrote:

The
single modem/router/wireless box is hardly even warm to the touch and
has about half the power consumption of the two box arrangement it
replaces, which seems an important important property for something
that has to be powered 24/7.


I wish they would power down whan there is no local internet traffic and
wake on lan activity but apart from that they are fine.


ADSL and VDSL have to be automatically rate-adaptive (because they use
infrastructure not originally designed for the purpose) and apparently
a consequence of this is that routinely powering down your modem would
be interpreted by the system as a frequently occurring fault. It can't
tell the difference between a deliberate break in transmission and an
accidental one, so if it happens frequently it will assume a fault and
lower the sync rate in an attempt to achieve greater reliability, so
in time you might not be getting the best speed your line is capable
of carrying. Therefore it's best to leave ADSL and VDSL modems
continuously powered.

(This is not the same as with DOCSIS, which *does* use cables which
are chosen for the purpose, and where the sync speed for a particular
account *can* be guaranteed, even if you switch off at night).

Rod.
 




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