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Outdoor WiFi link - cheapest way to do 30 metres or so



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 21st 20, 10:32 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 244
Default Outdoor WiFi link - cheapest way to do 30 metres or so

On 21/04/2020 17:32, Chris Green wrote:
I want a reasonably fast and reliable link to an outbuilding which is,
I guess, 30 metres or so from the house. The existing UTP cable has
finally given up the ghost in the recent winds and I'm wondering
whether to replace it (difficult, time consuming) or to use a WiFi
link of some sort.

I don't need Gigabit speeds, 100Mb/s would be fine, thus a pair of
300Mb/s capable routers, if they can 'see' each other OK would be
fine.

Should I be looking at dedicated 'point-to-point' WiFi systems or are
'ordinary' routers capable of good speeds at the sort of distance I'm
talking about (30 to 50 metres I'd guess) with clear line of sight
visibility between the two. I could probably place both in windows so
there would just be a couple of sheets of glass in the way.


If you are serious about the cheapest possible and not too fussy about
RF legality then a pair of DIY Pringles cantennas and USB dongles sold
for wifi with removable antennas from Morgans ought to do the trick.

https://www.morgancomputers.co.uk/pr...ntenna-Dongle/

At 30m in free air you might just get away with the default antennas
that they come with assuming you can place them in clear line of sight.

If you are fussy about legality then one of the nominally outdoor 12dB
gain directional antennas sold by Solwise or Amazon will do the trick. I
can extend my home network to the Village Hall about 200m away with a
high gain antenna at one end only. eg

https://www.solwise.co.uk/wireless-o...antenna-24.htm


--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #12  
Old April 21st 20, 10:47 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Chris Green
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 286
Default Outdoor WiFi link - cheapest way to do 30 metres or so

Martin Brown wrote:
On 21/04/2020 17:32, Chris Green wrote:
I want a reasonably fast and reliable link to an outbuilding which is,
I guess, 30 metres or so from the house. The existing UTP cable has
finally given up the ghost in the recent winds and I'm wondering
whether to replace it (difficult, time consuming) or to use a WiFi
link of some sort.

I don't need Gigabit speeds, 100Mb/s would be fine, thus a pair of
300Mb/s capable routers, if they can 'see' each other OK would be
fine.

Should I be looking at dedicated 'point-to-point' WiFi systems or are
'ordinary' routers capable of good speeds at the sort of distance I'm
talking about (30 to 50 metres I'd guess) with clear line of sight
visibility between the two. I could probably place both in windows so
there would just be a couple of sheets of glass in the way.


If you are serious about the cheapest possible and not too fussy about
RF legality then a pair of DIY Pringles cantennas and USB dongles sold
for wifi with removable antennas from Morgans ought to do the trick.

https://www.morgancomputers.co.uk/pr...ntenna-Dongle/


At 30m in free air you might just get away with the default antennas
that they come with assuming you can place them in clear line of sight.

If you are fussy about legality then one of the nominally outdoor 12dB
gain directional antennas sold by Solwise or Amazon will do the trick. I
can extend my home network to the Village Hall about 200m away with a
high gain antenna at one end only. eg

https://www.solwise.co.uk/wireless-o...antenna-24.htm

I think I may have some things like these lying around already, with a
Raspberry Pi at the far end (i.e. in the outbuilding) configured as an
access point it might be all I need.

Thanks everyone for the ideas.

--
Chris Green
·
  #13  
Old April 22nd 20, 09:18 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Roderick Stewart
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 622
Default Outdoor WiFi link - cheapest way to do 30 metres or so

On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:18:12 +0100, Woody
wrote:

[ powerline ethernet links]
I am also a radio amateur and surprisingly it does
not cause me any HF issues whatsoever.


That's interesting. I'm not a radio amateur myself, but have long
suspected that the notion that these things cause interference is a
myth put about by others who are not radio amateurs either.

Perhaps they'll soon be saying that they cause coronavirus too? After
all, if 5G masts can cause it, why not any other piece of technology
they don't understand?

Rod.
  #14  
Old April 22nd 20, 09:50 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 244
Default Outdoor WiFi link - cheapest way to do 30 metres or so

On 22/04/2020 09:18, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:18:12 +0100, Woody
wrote:

[ powerline ethernet links]
I am also a radio amateur and surprisingly it does
not cause me any HF issues whatsoever.


That's interesting. I'm not a radio amateur myself, but have long
suspected that the notion that these things cause interference is a
myth put about by others who are not radio amateurs either.


They will do to some extent but being spread spectrum their first order
effect is merely to just raise the noise floor ever so slightly.

Modern digital transmissions are pretty much indistinguishable from
white noise unless you have the right correlator to decode them.

Perhaps they'll soon be saying that they cause coronavirus too? After
all, if 5G masts can cause it, why not any other piece of technology
they don't understand?


Interestingly the lack of traffic and heavy machinery operating has
lowered the noise floor considerably for seismology research!

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/s...ronavirus.html


--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #15  
Old April 22nd 20, 09:54 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Tweed[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default Outdoor WiFi link - cheapest way to do 30 metres or so

Peter wrote:

Chris Green wrote

I don't need Gigabit speeds, 100Mb/s would be fine, thus a pair of
300Mb/s capable routers, if they can 'see' each other OK would be
fine.


You will be doing very well to get even 30mbits/sec with any WIFI
product, IME. I spent ages setting up a wifi link though a wall, and
eventually got about 30 mbps by setting up a 40MHz mode, with a
Draytek 800 AP one end and a TP-link box at the other.

Eventually I got fed up with it and drilled a hole in the wall and put
a cable in there.

Ethernet over mains manages even less speed, IME of testing a number
of "1Gbps" products.


I can pull 200 Mbit/sec from my Apple AirPort Extreme to my iPad. This is
on 5GHz. But this is within a few metres with only a wooden floor in
between. It does tail off with distance. If I were the OP I'd give serious
consideration to burying some optical fibre. You can get “armoured” stuff
(basically encased in some very strong plastic, and believe me it is strong
as I had to get a hack saw to some to remove it from an installation). The
advantage of fibre is that it is unlikely to go off through water ingress
over the years. Fibre to electrical Ethernet converters are also pretty
cheap these days. It also removes any problems of grounding potential
differences between buildings.

  #16  
Old April 22nd 20, 09:59 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 244
Default Outdoor WiFi link - cheapest way to do 30 metres or so

On 22/04/2020 09:23, Peter wrote:

Chris Green wrote

I don't need Gigabit speeds, 100Mb/s would be fine, thus a pair of
300Mb/s capable routers, if they can 'see' each other OK would be
fine.


You will be doing very well to get even 30mbits/sec with any WIFI
product, IME. I spent ages setting up a wifi link though a wall, and
eventually got about 30 mbps by setting up a 40MHz mode, with a
Draytek 800 AP one end and a TP-link box at the other.


It is hard not to get 200Mbps with the modern kit - at least if you pay
attention to getting a clear channel. If you are in an RF congested
block of flats competing with many neighbours then all bets are off.

Eventually I got fed up with it and drilled a hole in the wall and put
a cable in there.


It depends on the wall. Glass or plasterboard puts up no resistance at
all. Brick walls certainly slow things down. The chicken mesh in my
Victorian plastered walls is almost a Faraday cage for some parts of the
house. Foil coated plasterboard or insulation is a menace too.

Claimed wifi ranges and speeds are based on US style wood and cardboard
houses and are always disappointing in brick and stone built properties.

Ethernet over mains manages even less speed, IME of testing a number
of "1Gbps" products.


It depends critically on whether or not you are on the same ring main.
Your poor results are probably because your wiring isn't continuous.

Mine works surprisingly well across two entirely different ring mains
off different MCBs (much better than I would have expected). The later
extension has its own independent electrical supply but the devices on
it can still see the mains based network. Only used for printing and web
browsing but it works much faster than the external ADSL internet.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #17  
Old April 22nd 20, 10:02 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 244
Default Outdoor WiFi link - cheapest way to do 30 metres or so

On 21/04/2020 20:58, Chris Green wrote:
R. Mark Clayton wrote:
On Tuesday, 21 April 2020 19:01:13 UTC+1, Graham J wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
I want a reasonably fast and reliable link to an outbuilding which is,
I guess, 30 metres or so from the house. The existing UTP cable has
finally given up the ghost in the recent winds and I'm wondering
whether to replace it (difficult, time consuming) or to use a WiFi
link of some sort.

I don't need Gigabit speeds, 100Mb/s would be fine, thus a pair of
300Mb/s capable routers, if they can 'see' each other OK would be
fine.

Should I be looking at dedicated 'point-to-point' WiFi systems or are
'ordinary' routers capable of good speeds at the sort of distance I'm
talking about (30 to 50 metres I'd guess) with clear line of sight
visibility between the two. I could probably place both in windows so
there would just be a couple of sheets of glass in the way.

Ordinary WiFi Access points should be fine, placed where they can see
each other through windows. Beware glass with antireflective coatings -
they're usually metal - very thin, but enough to stop RF.

--
Graham J


If your router or device have aerial connectors you could use small Yagi's.

That's a point, I have routers with external aerials so I'll explore
that route. Thanks.


You may not even need a yagi. 10dB directional gain flat antennae are
relatively cheap and one of them gets me 300m range at close to full
speed (except when it is raining). Line of sight goes through a roof.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #18  
Old April 22nd 20, 10:43 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Tweed[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default Outdoor WiFi link - cheapest way to do 30 metres or so

Martin Brown wrote:
On 21/04/2020 20:58, Chris Green wrote:
R. Mark Clayton wrote:
On Tuesday, 21 April 2020 19:01:13 UTC+1, Graham J wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
I want a reasonably fast and reliable link to an outbuilding which is,
I guess, 30 metres or so from the house. The existing UTP cable has
finally given up the ghost in the recent winds and I'm wondering
whether to replace it (difficult, time consuming) or to use a WiFi
link of some sort.

I don't need Gigabit speeds, 100Mb/s would be fine, thus a pair of
300Mb/s capable routers, if they can 'see' each other OK would be
fine.

Should I be looking at dedicated 'point-to-point' WiFi systems or are
'ordinary' routers capable of good speeds at the sort of distance I'm
talking about (30 to 50 metres I'd guess) with clear line of sight
visibility between the two. I could probably place both in windows so
there would just be a couple of sheets of glass in the way.

Ordinary WiFi Access points should be fine, placed where they can see
each other through windows. Beware glass with antireflective coatings -
they're usually metal - very thin, but enough to stop RF.

--
Graham J

If your router or device have aerial connectors you could use small Yagi's.

That's a point, I have routers with external aerials so I'll explore
that route. Thanks.


You may not even need a yagi. 10dB directional gain flat antennae are
relatively cheap and one of them gets me 300m range at close to full
speed (except when it is raining). Line of sight goes through a roof.


If you have relatively recent glazing the mandated K glass (metallic
coating) plays havoc with WiFi signals.

  #19  
Old April 22nd 20, 10:53 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Chris Green
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 286
Default Outdoor WiFi link - cheapest way to do 30 metres or so

Martin Brown wrote:
On 21/04/2020 20:58, Chris Green wrote:
R. Mark Clayton wrote:
On Tuesday, 21 April 2020 19:01:13 UTC+1, Graham J wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
I want a reasonably fast and reliable link to an outbuilding which is,
I guess, 30 metres or so from the house. The existing UTP cable has
finally given up the ghost in the recent winds and I'm wondering
whether to replace it (difficult, time consuming) or to use a WiFi
link of some sort.

I don't need Gigabit speeds, 100Mb/s would be fine, thus a pair of
300Mb/s capable routers, if they can 'see' each other OK would be
fine.

Should I be looking at dedicated 'point-to-point' WiFi systems or are
'ordinary' routers capable of good speeds at the sort of distance I'm
talking about (30 to 50 metres I'd guess) with clear line of sight
visibility between the two. I could probably place both in windows so
there would just be a couple of sheets of glass in the way.

Ordinary WiFi Access points should be fine, placed where they can see
each other through windows. Beware glass with antireflective coatings -
they're usually metal - very thin, but enough to stop RF.

--
Graham J

If your router or device have aerial connectors you could use small Yagi's.

That's a point, I have routers with external aerials so I'll explore
that route. Thanks.


You may not even need a yagi. 10dB directional gain flat antennae are
relatively cheap and one of them gets me 300m range at close to full
speed (except when it is raining). Line of sight goes through a roof.

Yes, I suspect that two reasonably good access points (or routers)
that can 'see' each other across open space will probably give me an
acceptably fast connection. I'm just trying to work out if I can
re-assign my various 'routers used as access points' and other similar
bits and pieces to dedicate two to providing the bridge. ... or can I
buy two (fairly) cheap access points to do the job?

--
Chris Green
·
  #20  
Old April 22nd 20, 10:57 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Chris Green
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 286
Default Outdoor WiFi link - cheapest way to do 30 metres or so

Peter wrote:

Chris Green wrote

I don't need Gigabit speeds, 100Mb/s would be fine, thus a pair of
300Mb/s capable routers, if they can 'see' each other OK would be
fine.


You will be doing very well to get even 30mbits/sec with any WIFI
product, IME. I spent ages setting up a wifi link though a wall, and
eventually got about 30 mbps by setting up a 40MHz mode, with a
Draytek 800 AP one end and a TP-link box at the other.

I have three WiFi 'access points', the main Draytek 2860n VDSL router,
an old Draytek 2820n and a TP-Link 9980. When in the room where the
router/AP is speeds are pretty good, I get over 100Mb/s (and the
actual throughput is quite close). Otherwise, as you say, speed drops
quite rapidly, that's why I *have* three APs, they're in the rooms
where we need fast WiFi.


Eventually I got fed up with it and drilled a hole in the wall and put
a cable in there.

I've got lots of holes in the walls! :-)


Ethernet over mains manages even less speed, IME of testing a number
of "1Gbps" products.


Definitely, my experience is that they're pretty crap.

--
Chris Green
·
 




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