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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

when moving to fibre...



 
 
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  #21  
Old July 23rd 20, 09:09 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 356
Default when moving to fibre...

Theo wrote:

[snip]


This is part of Openreach's plan for decommissioning the analogue voice
network, by moving to all-data connections. The exchange is then no longer
handling voice calls - they're all in VOIP soft-switches.


The problem with this is that on average no broadband service is
anything like as reliable as the underlying voice service carried on the
copper pair.

For example, when did you last have a voice call broken for a minute by
a nearby lightning strike? You probably heard a click that marginally
affected intelligibility for under a second. With VoIP the router would
lose sync and take a minute to reconnect.

Come to think of it, when did you last have a landline voice call fail
for any reason?

(We know calls to/from mobiles fail frequently - I would say 20% of mine
either fail to connect or the sound only connects in one direction,
irrespective of whether they are incoming or outgoing. So it isn't just
because I'm in a rural area with a poor signal.)

There are any number of things that break ADSL or VDSL services for the
length of time it takes the router to re-sync. This doesn't affect
browsing or emails, and buffering ensures it doesn't affect streaming;
but potentially it renders voice almost unuseable.

When we all have FTTP only then will it be sensible for Openreach to
move everybody to VoIP.


--
Graham J
  #22  
Old July 23rd 20, 09:23 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
tim...
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 185
Default when moving to fibre...



"Graham J" wrote in message
...
Theo wrote:

[snip]


This is part of Openreach's plan for decommissioning the analogue voice
network, by moving to all-data connections. The exchange is then no
longer
handling voice calls - they're all in VOIP soft-switches.


The problem with this is that on average no broadband service is anything
like as reliable as the underlying voice service carried on the copper
pair.

For example, when did you last have a voice call broken for a minute by a
nearby lightning strike? You probably heard a click that marginally
affected intelligibility for under a second. With VoIP the router would
lose sync and take a minute to reconnect.

Come to think of it, when did you last have a landline voice call fail for
any reason?


last week :-)

took 6 days to fix

BB still worked though



(We know calls to/from mobiles fail frequently - I would say 20% of mine
either fail to connect or the sound only connects in one direction,
irrespective of whether they are incoming or outgoing. So it isn't just
because I'm in a rural area with a poor signal.)

There are any number of things that break ADSL or VDSL services for the
length of time it takes the router to re-sync. This doesn't affect
browsing or emails, and buffering ensures it doesn't affect streaming; but
potentially it renders voice almost unuseable.

When we all have FTTP only then will it be sensible for Openreach to move
everybody to VoIP.


the chances of retro fitting FTTP into a sizable percentage of established
blocks of flats is nil



  #23  
Old July 23rd 20, 09:48 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 356
Default when moving to fibre...

tim... wrote:
[snip]


the chances of retro fitting FTTP into a sizable percentage of
established blocks of flats is nil


The "proper" way to do this would be to bring FTTP into the plant room,
install there a router and managed switch with VLAN tagging, then CAT5
cables to each room - exactly as one would do for an office block.

Given that blocks of flats are prime candidates for eficiency
improvements such as better instulation and CHP systems, the extra cost
of flood wiring with CAT5 would be virtually nil.


--
Graham J
  #24  
Old July 23rd 20, 11:00 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Theo[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 119
Default when moving to fibre...

Graham J wrote:
Theo wrote:

[snip]


This is part of Openreach's plan for decommissioning the analogue voice
network, by moving to all-data connections. The exchange is then no longer
handling voice calls - they're all in VOIP soft-switches.


The problem with this is that on average no broadband service is
anything like as reliable as the underlying voice service carried on the
copper pair.


On a SOGEA install they ask whether you have another means of making calls
in an emergency. They won't accept the install if you say no.

You're right in principle, and this area is subject to substantial
handwaving and fudge.

Although I wonder how many people actually could use the PSTN voice service
in an emergency - they have a working wired phone that isn't DECT or similar
that relies on a power supply. I know readers of this group probably do,
but does the average household? Is it plugged in and functional for
immediate use?

OTOH I'm not sure the mobile network has really been thought through either
- in the case of, say, widespread flooding, would the mobile base stations
have enough backup power to last for a week? I assume not. Is there a
network to resupply them with generator fuel or whatever they might need?

There are any number of things that break ADSL or VDSL services for the
length of time it takes the router to re-sync. This doesn't affect
browsing or emails, and buffering ensures it doesn't affect streaming;
but potentially it renders voice almost unuseable.


Arguably SOGEA is a product for people who don't care that much about their
landlines, rather than depend on them 24/7. Although it isn't sold as such
(and Sky in particular don't tell you that's what you're getting when you
sign up)

When we all have FTTP only then will it be sensible for Openreach to
move everybody to VoIP.


Indeed - FTTP isn't subject to the analogue whims of ADSL/VDSL.

Theo
  #25  
Old July 23rd 20, 11:23 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Chris Green
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 292
Default when moving to fibre...

Graham J wrote:
Theo wrote:

[snip]


This is part of Openreach's plan for decommissioning the analogue voice
network, by moving to all-data connections. The exchange is then no longer
handling voice calls - they're all in VOIP soft-switches.


The problem with this is that on average no broadband service is
anything like as reliable as the underlying voice service carried on the
copper pair.

However it's not *that* uncommon for the opposite thing to happen,
we've had two faults on our FTTC/Landline, one just recently, where
the landline phone failed but the internet connection was fine.

The first one was a physical break which did slow the internet
somewhat (I think it was actually back when we were still on ADSL
rather than FTTC). The recent one was a cabinet fault of some sort,
our FTTC continued to work at full speed but there was no dial tone.

I don't think we've had an FTTC failure since we switched over from
ADSL a couple of years ago.

--
Chris Green
·
  #26  
Old July 23rd 20, 11:59 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Recliner[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 92
Default when moving to fibre...

Chris Green wrote:
Graham J wrote:
Theo wrote:

[snip]


This is part of Openreach's plan for decommissioning the analogue voice
network, by moving to all-data connections. The exchange is then no longer
handling voice calls - they're all in VOIP soft-switches.


The problem with this is that on average no broadband service is
anything like as reliable as the underlying voice service carried on the
copper pair.

However it's not *that* uncommon for the opposite thing to happen,
we've had two faults on our FTTC/Landline, one just recently, where
the landline phone failed but the internet connection was fine.

The first one was a physical break which did slow the internet
somewhat (I think it was actually back when we were still on ADSL
rather than FTTC). The recent one was a cabinet fault of some sort,
our FTTC continued to work at full speed but there was no dial tone.

I don't think we've had an FTTC failure since we switched over from
ADSL a couple of years ago.


When I still had FTTC, the internet connection was much more reliable than
the voice connection, which either failed or got very noisy from time to
time. In such cases, the speed of the internet connection dropped, but it
usually stayed working. In fact, had I only had VoIP (as I now do), I might
not even have realised there was a fault on the phone line. I gather that
the data gets through bad junctions more reliably than the POTS signal.

  #27  
Old July 23rd 20, 12:08 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 356
Default when moving to fibre...

Chris Green wrote:
Graham J wrote:
Theo wrote:

[snip]


This is part of Openreach's plan for decommissioning the analogue voice
network, by moving to all-data connections. The exchange is then no longer
handling voice calls - they're all in VOIP soft-switches.


The problem with this is that on average no broadband service is
anything like as reliable as the underlying voice service carried on the
copper pair.

However it's not *that* uncommon for the opposite thing to happen,
we've had two faults on our FTTC/Landline, one just recently, where
the landline phone failed but the internet connection was fine.

The first one was a physical break which did slow the internet
somewhat (I think it was actually back when we were still on ADSL
rather than FTTC). The recent one was a cabinet fault of some sort,
our FTTC continued to work at full speed but there was no dial tone.

I don't think we've had an FTTC failure since we switched over from
ADSL a couple of years ago.


Of course there are exceptions to the average.

But specifically I meant landline phone calls that don't complete
correctly: never connect at all, go consistently to the same wrong
number, carry voice traffic in one direction only, or drop the
connection randomly part way through. Such faults obviously did occur,
but they were not common.

These sorts of faults are comparable with the errors experienced by
internet users; and I'm sure you will agree that most people have often
experienced websites that fail to load, strange delays on large
downloads, and the like. And whatever causes them will make VoIP very
difficult to use.


--
Graham J
  #28  
Old July 23rd 20, 12:19 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 704
Default when moving to fibre...

On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 11:49:06 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
R. Mark Clayton wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 10:12:01 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
"Mark Carver" wrote in message
...
On 22/07/2020 08:02, tim... wrote:
Will the old wired BB be turned off?

My Fibre is to be activated on Friday


What sort of fibre ? FTTC, FTTP, or Virgin ?

FTTC


Well then it is still copper or the dire thin aluminium wires from the
cabinet to your place.


Probably not aluminium wires if his current system is ADSL?


Mine are from the hole in the road to my place.

Used to suffer frequent "underground" faults, usually after heavy rain.
  #29  
Old July 23rd 20, 12:23 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 356
Default when moving to fibre...

Recliner wrote:

[snip]

When I still had FTTC, the internet connection was much more reliable than
the voice connection, which either failed or got very noisy from time to
time. In such cases, the speed of the internet connection dropped, but it
usually stayed working. In fact, had I only had VoIP (as I now do), I might
not even have realised there was a fault on the phone line. I gather that
the data gets through bad junctions more reliably than the POTS signal.


By contrast, I used to help people resolve faults with their internet
connections; so I saw a good number of faults. In general, a voice
service would continue to operate albeit noisily, while the broadband
would be forever dropping out. Generally noise on the voice service
would be a good indication that the broadband would be unreliable; and
once the voice service provider had fixed the noise problem the internet
connection became reliable.

Clearly with FTTC the proportion of copper involved is much smaller, so
there is a greater opportunity for the FTTC service to continue working
while the voice service suffers.

We know there are specific circumstances where the broadband will
survive but the voice does not; but my point was to generalise and talk
about averages.

https://www.zen.co.uk/help-support/broadband-intermittent-connection
claim that "The most common cause of broadband problems is faulty
equipment." and they imply that the faulty device is the router. In 20
years of supporting customers I think I've only seen a handful of router
failures. In my experience the most common cause of failure is the BT
line.

I'm discounting WiFi here obviously - most users don't understand this
point even when it is explained in words of one syllable.



--
Graham J
  #30  
Old July 23rd 20, 12:26 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 704
Default when moving to fibre...

On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 13:09:01 UTC+1, Graham J wrote:
Recliner wrote:

[snip]


Probably not aluminium wires if his current system is ADSL?


Certainly can be. Locally Openreach technicians are forever fixing
broken wires that are inadvertently damaged by their colleagues and when
asked they tell me it's because some are aluminium, but their records
tell them they they are all copper.



--
Graham J


Oh yes! Whenever I did have a fault I used to look out the window to see if there was a BT van and an engineer with a little tent or his head in the street chamber. Particularly notable was an exchange in 1997.

Wednesday - order new line from BT.
Thursday - line installed
Friday - line enabled at the exchange everything working.
Saturday - no tone, phone does not ring when number called, but gives ring tone.

Look out of window spot engineer.
Me: Er I think you have just cut off my line xxx yyyy.
Jobsworth: You will have to ring it in on Monday morning.
Me: It was only installed yesterday.
Jobsworth: You will have to ring it in on Monday morning.
Me: It is a business line.
Jobsworth: You will have to ring it in on Monday morning.
Me: you are supposed to repair business lines on Saturday morning.
Jobsworth: You will have to ring it in on Monday morning.
Me: It is on Total Care.
Jobsworth: What number did you say it was?

By the time I got back to my office it was back on.
 




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