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P2MP at 5GHz



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 13th 19, 07:13 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Woody
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 708
Default P2MP at 5GHz

I have need to feed a common broadband presentation to three remote
locations (all within about 300m). One location will connect to a
wireless access point, the other two will be cable terminated. For
various reasons it is not possible to run cables over or under ground.

I have been looking at pole-mounted outdoor 5GHz units that can be
configured to work as access points or as links - for example the
TP-Link CPE510 Pharos products or similar by Ubiquiti, Solwise, or BLink.

Question: can I set them up as point-to-multipoint operation? All
outstations are well within the 45deg beamwidth of the source unit.

The remote ends as described will have one terminated in a simple switch
(or possibly a simple access point so that laptops can be more easily
used) to feed a couple of PC's and a networked printer, the second will
terminate in an indoor wi-fi access point, and the third will be an
external access point. All user wi-fi will be on 2.4GHz so the P2MPs
will not broadcast SSIDs.

As these locations (plus a fourth already in situ and cable connected to
the source point) will have different (business) uses so will
effectively be on different networks so that data usage can be recorded
(hopefully). I was thinking of a Draytek Vigor 2830n as it is capable of
operating a number of different networks with different SSIDs although I
realise there are many routers available that can operate such.

Any help gratefully received.


--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com
  #2  
Old March 14th 19, 12:06 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 29
Default P2MP at 5GHz

Woody wrote:
I have need to feed a common broadband presentation to three remote
locations (all within about 300m). One location will connect to a
wireless access point, the other two will be cable terminated. For
various reasons it is not possible to run cables over or under ground.

I have been looking at pole-mounted outdoor 5GHz units that can be
configured to work as access points or as links - for example the
TP-Link CPE510 Pharos products or similar by Ubiquiti, Solwise, or BLink.

Question: can I set them up as point-to-multipoint operation? All
outstations are well within the 45deg beamwidth of the source unit.

The remote ends as described will have one terminated in a simple switch
(or possibly a simple access point so that laptops can be more easily
used) to feed a couple of PC's and a networked printer, the second will
terminate in an indoor wi-fi access point, and the third will be an
external access point. All user wi-fi will be on 2.4GHz so the P2MPs
will not broadcast SSIDs.

As these locations (plus a fourth already in situ and cable connected to
the source point) will have different (business) uses so will
effectively be on different networks so that data usage can be recorded
(hopefully). I was thinking of a Draytek Vigor 2830n as it is capable of
operating a number of different networks with different SSIDs although I
realise there are many routers available that can operate such.

Any help gratefully received.




I've used Tranzeo and Solwise devices over distances of a few km, in
point to point configuration using bridge mode. I would think that
point to multipoint would work, but for my applications the distances
were greater and I used devices with higher gain antennae (i.e. narrower
beam width) - but I did not require multipoint operation.

The Tranzeo units worked in bridge mode exactly as I expected. They are
still working, having been installed in 2008.

The Solwise units behave very strangely when configured in bridge mode.
Devices on the remote side of the bridge don't get the correct IP
address from the (Draytek) router when binding is configured - I suspect
that the Solwise unit nearest the router presents its MAC address rather
than that of the client connected to the remote device when bridging
traffic. I think that such clients would work if configured with static
IPs, but I didn't investigate the exact failure mechanism. Happily in
this instance I was able to configure the link as Access Point and
Client Router, which (conveniently for this installation) put all the
remote clients behind NAT.

In effect devices in bridge mode should behave like a piece of wire - or
more accurately a network hub - but with ports separated by the wireless
link.

In your case the remote ends could use something like the Draytek AP810
which has 4 Ethernet ports and WiFi. Some of the Draytek routers can
remotely manage a collection of these.


--
Graham J
  #3  
Old March 14th 19, 10:01 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 147
Default P2MP at 5GHz

On 13/03/2019 18:13, Woody wrote:
I have need to feed a common broadband presentation to three remote
locations (all within about 300m). One location will connect to a
wireless access point, the other two will be cable terminated. For
various reasons it is not possible to run cables over or under ground.

I have been looking at pole-mounted outdoor 5GHz units that can be
configured to work as access points or as links - for example the
TP-Link CPE510 Pharos products or similar by Ubiquiti, Solwise, or BLink.

Question: can I set them up as point-to-multipoint operation? All
outstations are well within the 45deg beamwidth of the source unit.

The remote ends as described will have one terminated in a simple switch
(or possibly a simple access point so that laptops can be more easily
used) to feed a couple of PC's and a networked printer, the second will
terminate in an indoor wi-fi access point, and the third will be an
external access point. All user wi-fi will be on 2.4GHz so the P2MPs
will not broadcast SSIDs.


For a 300m range I think you might well be able to get away with the
solution I adopted when I wanted to do lectures using the internet in
our village hall. I had intended to make a cantenna but time ran out and
I bought a flat panel 2.4GHz 10dB gain antenna for Wifi from Solwise and
paired it with a dongle with removable antenna from Morgan Computers. It
worked very well at 200m and through several roofs once aligned.

The base station was a reasonably capable router with MIMO beamshaping
and the high gain antenna was used only at the remote node.

Mine was similar to this one (but was 40 five years ago).
https://www.solwise.co.uk/wireless-o...panel-10pn.htm

You will need an N type adapter as well.

Morgan dongle (unless they have changed it OK for Apple/Win/Linux)

https://www.morgancomputers.co.uk/pr...ntenna-Dongle/

Alignment is nowhere near as tetchy as a 3G 10 element yagi. Getting it
all to work together the first time may be tricky but it was fine for my
needs. I got an external antenna intending one day to put it outside but
it worked fine hung in a window so I never bothered. Now the VH has its
own internet connection that is faster than mine (they have line of
sight on the local peer to peer Clannet microwave system).

As these locations (plus a fourth already in situ and cable connected to
the source point) will have different (business) uses so will
effectively be on different networks so that data usage can be recorded
(hopefully). I was thinking of a Draytek Vigor 2830n as it is capable of
operating a number of different networks with different SSIDs although I
realise there are many routers available that can operate such.

Any help gratefully received.


I have always found Solwise very helpful. I only ever bought one dud
thing from them (which I honestly didn't expect to work but thought was
worth a punt anyway). They stopped selling it shortly afterwards.
(it was a passive 3G mobile phone to external antenna coupler)

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #4  
Old March 14th 19, 10:47 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Woody
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 708
Default P2MP at 5GHz

On Thu 14/03/2019 09:01, Martin Brown wrote:
On 13/03/2019 18:13, Woody wrote:
I have need to feed a common broadband presentation to three remote
locations (all within about 300m). One location will connect to a
wireless access point, the other two will be cable terminated. For
various reasons it is not possible to run cables over or under ground.

I have been looking at pole-mounted outdoor 5GHz units that can be
configured to work as access points or as links - for example the
TP-Link CPE510 Pharos products or similar by Ubiquiti, Solwise, or BLink.

Question: can I set them up as point-to-multipoint operation? All
outstations are well within the 45deg beamwidth of the source unit.

The remote ends as described will have one terminated in a simple
switch (or possibly a simple access point so that laptops can be more
easily used) to feed a couple of PC's and a networked printer, the
second will terminate in an indoor wi-fi access point, and the third
will be an external access point. All user wi-fi will be on 2.4GHz so
the P2MPs will not broadcast SSIDs.


For a 300m range I think you might well be able to get away with the
solution I adopted when I wanted to do lectures using the internet in
our village hall. I had intended to make a cantenna but time ran out and
I bought a flat panel 2.4GHz 10dB gain antenna for Wifi from Solwise and
paired it with a dongle with removable antenna from Morgan Computers. It
worked very well at 200m and through several roofs once aligned.

The base station was a reasonably capable router with MIMO beamshaping
and the high gain antenna was used only at the remote node.

Mine was similar to this one (but was 40 five years ago).
https://www.solwise.co.uk/wireless-o...panel-10pn.htm

You will need an N type adapter as well.

Morgan dongle (unless they have changed it OK for Apple/Win/Linux)

https://www.morgancomputers.co.uk/pr...ntenna-Dongle/


Alignment is nowhere near as tetchy as a 3G 10 element yagi. Getting it
all to work together the first time may be tricky but it was fine for my
needs. I got an external antenna intending one day to put it outside but
it worked fine hung in a window so I never bothered. Now the VH has its
own internet connection that is faster than mine (they have line of
sight on the local peer to peer Clannet microwave system).

As these locations (plus a fourth already in situ and cable connected
to the source point) will have different (business) uses so will
effectively be on different networks so that data usage can be
recorded (hopefully). I was thinking of a Draytek Vigor 2830n as it is
capable of operating a number of different networks with different
SSIDs although I realise there are many routers available that can
operate such.

Any help gratefully received.


I have always found Solwise very helpful. I only ever bought one dud
thing from them (which I honestly didn't expect to work but thought was
worth a punt anyway). They stopped selling it shortly afterwards.
(it was a passive 3G mobile phone to external antenna coupler)

Thanks for that contribution Martin, but there are other factors that I
did not think necessary to include. At present there are four landlines
to the farm, all terminated in BTHH5:
1 to eldest sons business area which does 5.5Mb/s or a bit more. This
feeding a CPE510 to link to his home which is a large 'mobile'.
2 to the farm office only - does 2.5Mb on a good day
3 to the farm for domestic use - does around 1.8Mb most of the time*
4 to an outbuilding feeding a CPE210 for wi-fi to his 5-van caravan site
- also does 1.8Mb on a good day with a following wind. Demand for more
speed from campers and farm catch-up TV is the driving force behind
these changes.
*This landline is so noisy they don't use it for speech any more.

I am puzzled why four pairs in the same cable can have such speed
differences albeit they comply with the BTOR predictions for the
associated landline numbers. The single 4-pair overhead line runs to a
DP on a pole about 1150m away, and thence by a bigger o/h cable another
1300m to a terminating pole where it goes underground to the local
exchange which is a further Km. - the BTOR ADSL site gives the total
cable length as 2908m. FTTC is not available in the area.

The intent is to fit a single 4G router in the outbuilding and feed that
into something else. If they use 4G EE they can connect up to 32 users
at once so all that would be needed would be a switch given the maximum
number of concurrent users would be about 15. If they choose to use one
of the other suppliers which will take 10 or less concurrent users (I am
assuming this is a DHCP limit) then it will have to be a router - I have
a spare Draytek 2830n sitting at the side of me assuming one day I can
figure out how to program it! This option has the advantage of being
able to run four different nets so that the two business data usages can
be costed (if possible.) It also means that the three non-camper nets
can be set without SSID broadcast so campers don't try to connect to
them. Unfortunately the farmer has chosen to leave the camping net open
despite my advice.

My original intent was to link (using CPE510s or similar) from the
outbuilding to the farmhouse and using a switch feed the office on one
link, the private external access point for the three sons in there
mobile homes on a second link, and an internal cable to a wireless
access point in the farmhouse. The caravanners CPE210 is cable connected
at the outbuilding.

Having found out about P2MP I could save the cost of two CPE510s doing
it that way if it will work, hence my query. The maximum single link
distance will be 120m, or 85m if I do it a different way, but there are
a lot of buildings and metal roofs around which I believe necessitate
the links.

If you want a chat off net my address below is valid.

--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com
  #5  
Old March 14th 19, 11:52 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 147
Default P2MP at 5GHz

On 14/03/2019 09:47, Woody wrote:

[snip]

Thanks for that contribution Martin, but there are other factors that I
did not think necessary to include. At present there are four landlines
to the farm, all terminated in BTHH5:
1 to eldest sons business area which does 5.5Mb/s or a bit more. This
feeding a CPE510 to link to his home which is a large 'mobile'.
2 to the farm office only - does 2.5Mb on a good day
3 to the farm for domestic use - does around 1.8Mb most of the time*
4 to an outbuilding feeding a CPE210 for wi-fi to his 5-van caravan site
- also does 1.8Mb on a good day with a following wind. Demand for more
speed from campers and farm catch-up TV is the driving force behind
these changes.
*This landline is so noisy they don't use it for speech any more.


It's that one. Step one would be to force BTOR to get the farm domestic
use line to a noise free state that would get you another line at 5MB/s.

Range and attenuation is similar to my situation and connect speeds in
the village vary from 0.25MB/s to my 5Mbps with a median around 2-3M. My
internal wiring is exceptionally clean and I have forced BT to fix my
line several times (and bribed linesmen with coffee and biscuits to find
me a decent line pair when things have gone seriously AWOL).

I have obviously got a bit of a reputation with BT since it seems we are
in phase 3 of the FTTC upgrade and digging up of my daffodils seems to
be future provision for FTTP. I can't imagine why they did it otherwise
since there is an obvious place to put the cabinet at a junction.

I am puzzled why four pairs in the same cable can have such speed
differences albeit they comply with the BTOR predictions for the
associated landline numbers. The single 4-pair overhead line runs to a
DP on a pole about 1150m away, and thence by a bigger o/h cable another
1300m to a terminating pole where it goes underground to the local
exchange which is a further Km. - the BTOR ADSL site gives the total
cable length as 2908m. FTTC is not available in the area.


I think it may well be par for the course. But any line with obvious
audio noise on the POTS service is worth beating them about the head.

The intent is to fit a single 4G router in the outbuilding and feed that
into something else. If they use 4G EE they can connect up to 32 users
at once so all that would be needed would be a switch given the maximum
number of concurrent users would be about 15. If they choose to use one
of the other suppliers which will take 10 or less concurrent users (I am
assuming this is a DHCP limit) then it will have to be a router - I have
a spare Draytek 2830n sitting at the side of me assuming one day I can
figure out how to program it! This option has the advantage of being
able to run four different nets so that the two business data usages can
be costed (if possible.) It also means that the three non-camper nets
can be set without SSID broadcast so campers don't try to connect to
them. Unfortunately the farmer has chosen to leave the camping net open
despite my advice.


Hmm. He's on a bit of a sticky wicket there is someone downloads
something naughty using his open Wifi.

My original intent was to link (using CPE510s or similar) from the
outbuilding to the farmhouse and using a switch feed the office on one
link, the private external access point for the three sons in there
mobile homes on a second link, and an internal cable to a wireless
access point in the farmhouse. The caravanners CPE210 is cable connected
at the outbuilding.

Having found out about P2MP I could save the cost of two CPE510s doing
it that way if it will work, hence my query. The maximum single link
distance will be 120m, or 85m if I do it a different way, but there are
a lot of buildings and metal roofs around which I believe necessitate
the links.

If you want a chat off net my address below is valid.


My odd looking email address is also valid

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #6  
Old March 14th 19, 12:38 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 29
Default P2MP at 5GHz

Woody wrote:

[snip]

Thanks for that contribution Martin, but there are other factors that I
did not think necessary to include. At present there are four landlines
to the farm, all terminated in BTHH5:
1 to eldest sons business area which does 5.5Mb/s or a bit more. This
feeding a CPE510 to link to his home which is a large 'mobile'.
2 to the farm office only - does 2.5Mb on a good day
3 to the farm for domestic use - does around 1.8Mb most of the time*
4 to an outbuilding feeding a CPE210 for wi-fi to his 5-van caravan site
- also does 1.8Mb on a good day with a following wind. Demand for more
speed from campers and farm catch-up TV is the driving force behind
these changes.
*This landline is so noisy they don't use it for speech any more.

I am puzzled why four pairs in the same cable can have such speed
differences albeit they comply with the BTOR predictions for the
associated landline numbers. The single 4-pair overhead line runs to a
DP on a pole about 1150m away, and thence by a bigger o/h cable another
1300m to a terminating pole where it goes underground to the local
exchange which is a further Km. - the BTOR ADSL site gives the total
cable length as 2908m. FTTC is not available in the area.


You've mentioned this here before. My suggestion at the time, and I
repeat it here, is to change your ISP to either A&A or Zen, then get the
ISP to persuade OR to fix or replace the incoming cable. You should
then be able to get all 5 lines operating at abut 5.5 Mbits/sec.

A&A could provide a bonded ADSL service using all 4 of these lines, so
you should get over 20Mbits/sec. You would need the A&A-supplied router
so that the 4 lines appear as a single broadband service on one IP
address. You would then implement whatever WiFi system you need, using
Access Points.

The intent is to fit a single 4G router in the outbuilding and feed that
into something else. If they use 4G EE they can connect up to 32 users
at once so all that would be needed would be a switch given the maximum
number of concurrent users would be about 15. If they choose to use one
of the other suppliers which will take 10 or less concurrent users (I am
assuming this is a DHCP limit)


I doubt it - I suspect it is a marketing term, to indicate the available
bandwidth.

A friend has one of these 4G routers, in a very rural location on the
coast north-east of Holbeach. During the day he gets reasonable speeds
(10Mbits/sec or better) but by 4pm and through the evening it drops to
1Mbits/sec or less - presumably because of congestion. I think his
provider is EE. This of course is the inherent problem with any
broadband service using the mobile phone system - the shared nature of
the spectrum. He does have wall-mounted antennae even then to get a
signal from the base-station (across The Wash at Hunstanton).

I suggest you evaluate your local 4G service before committing to this
mechanism.

[snip]


--
Graham J
  #7  
Old March 14th 19, 12:53 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 29
Default P2MP at 5GHz

Graham J wrote:

[snip]

then be able to get all 5 lines operating at abut 5.5 Mbits/sec.


then be able to get all *4* lines operating at abut 5.5 Mbits/sec.

Sorry!!


--
Graham J
  #8  
Old March 15th 19, 10:49 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Martin Brown[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 147
Default P2MP at 5GHz

On 14/03/2019 11:38, Graham J wrote:
Woody wrote:

[snip]

Thanks for that contribution Martin, but there are other factors that
I did not think necessary to include. At present there are four
landlines to the farm, all terminated in BTHH5:
1 to eldest sons business area which does 5.5Mb/s or a bit more. This
feeding a CPE510 to link to his home which is a large 'mobile'.
2 to the farm office only - does 2.5Mb on a good day
3 to the farm for domestic use - does around 1.8Mb most of the time*
4 to an outbuilding feeding a CPE210 for wi-fi to his 5-van caravan
site - also does 1.8Mb on a good day with a following wind. Demand for
more speed from campers and farm catch-up TV is the driving force
behind these changes.
*This landline is so noisy they don't use it for speech any more.

I am puzzled why four pairs in the same cable can have such speed
differences albeit they comply with the BTOR predictions for the
associated landline numbers. The single 4-pair overhead line runs to a
DP on a pole about 1150m away, and thence by a bigger o/h cable
another 1300m to a terminating pole where it goes underground to the
local exchange which is a further Km. - the BTOR ADSL site gives the
total cable length as 2908m. FTTC is not available in the area.


You've mentioned this here before.* My suggestion at the time, and I
repeat it here, is to change your ISP to either A&A or Zen, then get the
ISP to persuade OR to fix or replace the incoming cable.* You should
then be able to get all 5 lines operating at abut 5.5 Mbits/sec.

A&A could provide a bonded ADSL service using all 4 of these lines, so
you should get over 20Mbits/sec.* You would need the A&A-supplied router
so that the 4 lines appear as a single broadband service on one IP
address.* You would then implement whatever WiFi system you need, using
Access Points.

The intent is to fit a single 4G router in the outbuilding and feed
that into something else. If they use 4G EE they can connect up to 32
users at once so all that would be needed would be a switch given the
maximum number of concurrent users would be about 15. If they choose
to use one of the other suppliers which will take 10 or less
concurrent users (I am assuming this is a DHCP limit)


I doubt it - I suspect it is a marketing term, to indicate the available
bandwidth.

A friend has one of these 4G routers, in a very rural location on the
coast north-east of Holbeach.* During the day he gets reasonable speeds
(10Mbits/sec or better) but by 4pm and through the evening it drops to
1Mbits/sec or less - presumably because of congestion.* I think his
provider is EE.* This of course is the inherent problem with any
broadband service using the mobile phone system - the shared nature of
the spectrum.* He does have wall-mounted antennae even then to get a
signal from the base-station (across The Wash at Hunstanton).

I suggest you evaluate your local 4G service before committing to this
mechanism.


For a proof of concept I would recommend a brace of el cheapo Chinese
yagi antenna and a Hauwei E5377 or other with the dual external antenna.

I have this one:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Huawei-Genu...dp/B00OZLP6C2/

(although mine was bought new - not sure which models have ext ant now)


--
Regards,
Martin Brown
 




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