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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

Advice on setting up multiple wifi networks to give coverage throughout house



 
 
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  #41  
Old July 3rd 19, 11:28 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Chris Green
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 206
Default Advice on setting up multiple wifi networks to give coverage throughout house

NY wrote:

We're debating whether the current situation is good enough, or whether we
need to invest in mesh network devices for a single network rather than two
networks (router's and extender's) that wireless devices have to switch
between. My phone and laptop are fine in all locations, as is my wife's
phone, but her iPad often fails to connect when it is moved from one network
to the other, or else disconnects subsequently; sometimes it claims that the
wifi password is incorrect when it's not and when my Android phone will
connect fine with the same password after forgetting and re-adding the
connection.

This appears to be a common Apple bug, refusing to connect even when
the correct password is given. My sister-in-law suffers from this
issue at our house. In the end I set up a passwordless SSID
especially for her to use! (we are pretty isolated so the 'open' WiFi
is unlikely to be seen by anyone else).


I've lost count of how many times I've had to reboot our various routers
over the years because of poor performance or dropped connections on that
iPad, when all other devices continue to work fine. Does anyone know whether
some iPads had dodgy wifi adaptors? This is Model A1490 (from back of case)
V11.1.1 (15B150), from Settings | General | About.

That iPad has been a confounded nuisance. My wife bought it to replace an
Android tablet which worked fine apart from the fact that the battery
stopped charging (apart from occasional bouts of charging) and wouldn't even
work from the mains adaptor. She went for Apple so we'd have experience of
both Android and Apple, but it can't have more than one app running at once
in many situations, so if you have a browser open and go to the email
client, when you flip back to the browser it has closed the tab of the
browser - annoying if you are half-way through completing an online order
for something and need to get some information from an email. I'd have
though that 128 GB, of which 36 GB is free (the status currently reported by
Settings | General | About) would be plenty.

If you do a web search for Apple (Ipad?) problems connecting you will
see it's quite a widespread issue. I never found a good solid
solution to it though.

--
Chris Green

  #42  
Old July 5th 19, 08:10 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Andy Burns[_5_]
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Posts: 414
Default Advice on setting up multiple wifi networks to give coveragethroughout house

Peter wrote:

It does 5GHz too but the
data rate on that is crap, due to the signal being too weak.


5GHz WiFi is more or less expected to be installed in the room it's to
be used in.
  #43  
Old July 6th 19, 11:55 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 606
Default Advice on setting up multiple wifi networks to give coveragethroughout house

On Friday, 5 July 2019 20:10:07 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
Peter wrote:

It does 5GHz too but the
data rate on that is crap, due to the signal being too weak.


5GHz WiFi is more or less expected to be installed in the room it's to
be used in.


Its range is shorter, especially through wall, but it is noticeably faster.
  #44  
Old July 9th 19, 10:44 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
NY[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33
Default Advice on setting up multiple wifi networks to give coverage throughout house

"Peter" wrote in message
...

"R. Mark Clayton" wrote:

On Friday, 5 July 2019 20:10:07 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
Peter wrote:

It does 5GHz too but the
data rate on that is crap, due to the signal being too weak.

5GHz WiFi is more or less expected to be installed in the room it's to
be used in.


Its range is shorter, especially through wall, but it is noticeably
faster.


Yes, possibly, i.e. it is crap


Yes I regard 5 GHz wifi as a bit like Bluetooth - capable of being fast and
getting the job done, but with appalling lack of range.

My FM wireless headphones have a range that covers most of the house. My
bluetooth headphone / hands-free adaptor has a range that covers most of the
same room, but drops out as soon as it encounters a brick wall (and yes, my
house has a few brick rather than plasterboard internal walls).

Since a lot of mesh networks use 5 GHz as the backhaul to communicate from
nose to node, back to the parent node, you need a very large number of them
to cover a building where 5 GHz attenuation is significant - or else you
need Ethernet cabling from each child node to the parent one which rather
defeats the object of having a wifi network that doesn't need cabling.


One thing I've not seen properly answered. With normal wifi repeaters it is
said that the performance of each repeater (where they are cascaded to
provide full coverage) get worse as you add another "hop" and therefore
another degree of separation from the parent (eg the router's WAN
connection, or the LAN computer that a remote computer is talking to). Is
this true for mesh networks - and if not, why not?

  #45  
Old July 9th 19, 12:11 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_3_]
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Posts: 93
Default Advice on setting up multiple wifi networks to give coveragethroughout house

NY wrote:

[snip]

Since a lot of mesh networks use 5 GHz as the backhaul to communicate
from node to node, back to the parent node, you need a very large number
of them to cover a building where 5 GHz attenuation is significant - or
else you need Ethernet cabling from each child node to the parent one
which rather defeats the object of having a wifi network that doesn't
need cabling.


WiFi has always been oversold. Yes, it works tolerably well for a
handful of clients within a single room. But users see it as so
convenient that they are prepared to tolerate its unreliability and poor
performance.

A mesh system where each node connects wirelessly is an academically
interesting idea which I'm sure has generated wonderful studies on how
to manage communication to nodes many hops away. But any such system
must rely on store-and-forward from one node to the next, so the actual
end-to-end communication speed will be very slow in relation to the
speed of each leg. This of course may well be perfectly adequate for
some applications.

The range of each node (in the context of the current WiFi discussion)
is limited by regulation, in order to operate in a license-free
environment. So to cover a larger area many nodes are required.

One claim is that in an emergency a mesh system will continue to work.
But that would require a very large number of nodes to be deployed in
advance, each having backup power to support the device for the duration
of the emergency (think earthquake or whatever). Further the disaster
may damage a good proportion of the nodes, so to achieve effective
communication many more nodes must be deployed at the outset.

By contrast a system where each node connects by wire back to a central
management device makes more business sense. Flood wiring is clearly
necessary, and will support high-bandwith services that are plugged in.
The wireless nodes are managed so that each node generates just
sufficient power to serve the clients in its immediate vicinity, and the
handover from one node to the next works properly.

One thing I've not seen properly answered. With normal wifi repeaters it
is said that the performance of each repeater (where they are cascaded
to provide full coverage) gets worse as you add another "hop" and therefore another degree of separation from the parent (eg the router's
WAN connection, or the LAN computer that a remote computer is talking
to).


I think the assumption usually made is that for most users the slowest
part of the link is from their router to the rest of the internet. The
usual configuration of TCP/IP is that only a small number of packets are
sent before transmission stops until a response is received. So if
every WiFi hop has to store a packet before sending it on the delay from
a packet being sent to it being received by the end device can be
significant; which is what reduces the effective communication speed.
This is especially true with a satellite internet connection, but the
workaround there is to allow more packets to be sent before a response
is required; that way the response time is poor but the average
throughput for large data volumes is fairly good.

Is this true for mesh networks - and if not, why not?

That would be nice to know. Clearly if the nodes can operate on
multiple wireless channels simultaneously, onward transmission of a
received packet need not incur any delay. Since the node devices are
designed to work with their peers the TCP/IP configuration can be
tailored as it is for the satellite system.


--
Graham J
  #46  
Old July 9th 19, 06:46 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 606
Default Advice on setting up multiple wifi networks to give coveragethroughout house

On Tuesday, 9 July 2019 10:44:31 UTC+1, NY wrote:
"Peter" wrote in message
...

"R. Mark Clayton" wrote:

On Friday, 5 July 2019 20:10:07 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
Peter wrote:

It does 5GHz too but the
data rate on that is crap, due to the signal being too weak.

5GHz WiFi is more or less expected to be installed in the room it's to
be used in.

Its range is shorter, especially through wall, but it is noticeably
faster.


Yes, possibly, i.e. it is crap


Yes I regard 5 GHz wifi as a bit like Bluetooth - capable of being fast and
getting the job done, but with appalling lack of range.

My FM wireless headphones have a range that covers most of the house. My
bluetooth headphone / hands-free adaptor has a range that covers most of the
same room, but drops out as soon as it encounters a brick wall (and yes, my
house has a few brick rather than plasterboard internal walls).

Since a lot of mesh networks use 5 GHz as the backhaul to communicate from
nose to node, back to the parent node, you need a very large number of them
to cover a building where 5 GHz attenuation is significant - or else you
need Ethernet cabling from each child node to the parent one which rather
defeats the object of having a wifi network that doesn't need cabling.


One thing I've not seen properly answered. With normal wifi repeaters it is
said that the performance of each repeater (where they are cascaded to
provide full coverage) get worse as you add another "hop" and therefore
another degree of separation from the parent (eg the router's WAN
connection, or the LAN computer that a remote computer is talking to). Is
this true for mesh networks - and if not, why not?


I depends on how good the intermediate switches are.

If you do a tracert on an internet address you will see that your data may have been through 25 switches by the time it gets to you. More fast ones will not lower the data rate, although if there is low signal strength or interference you may encounter reduced data rate.

It will add to latency, but again not very much compared to a hop across the pond.
  #47  
Old July 10th 19, 04:37 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Peter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 51
Default Advice on setting up multiple wifi networks to give coverage throughout house

The author has marked this message not to be archived. This post will be deleted on July 17, 2019.



Graham J wrote:

One claim is that in an emergency a mesh system will continue to work.
But that would require a very large number of nodes to be deployed in
advance, each having backup power to support the device for the duration
of the emergency (think earthquake or whatever). Further the disaster
may damage a good proportion of the nodes, so to achieve effective
communication many more nodes must be deployed at the outset.


Mesh products are very popular in the corporate environment. So
popular that some of the leading players extract periodic licensing
payments

But as you said the performance of wifi is hugely oversold. Most
people don't notice (because it is still faster than most ADSL, and
most video over ADSL is of poor bitrate) but if you try streaming
decent HD or 4K videoover wifi you soon discover how crap it is.
  #48  
Old July 12th 19, 05:48 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Mike Perkins
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Advice on setting up multiple wifi networks to give coveragethroughout house

On 23/06/2019 20:15, NY wrote:
"David" wrote in message
...
If the Powerline adapters are on the same ring, are you sure the ring
isn't broken between them?

It is very difficult to detect this, but a bad or broken connection could
be sending the signal back through the fuse box.


It is quite possible that the Powerline adapters are on different rings,
though hopefully in my case they are connected to the same consumer unit.
Being restricted to sockets that are on the same ring would severely
curtail
the usefulness of the devices, since my house seems to have several rings,
some on one CU and some on the other, and each with its own RCD (*)


I think you'll find an RCD will be a pretty good filter for a Powerline
adaptor.

Best keep them on the same ring. Or bridge rings using (ethernet) cable.


--
Mike Perkins
Video Solutions Ltd
www.videosolutions.ltd.uk
 




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